Magix Vandal amp sim = Winner in terms of sound quality so far

[futurefields]

Well, despite using the softube sims, I pretty much agree with pylorca.

In fact, I have not heard anything digital that sounded like my marshall plexi when it saturates the power section. I use some plugins like soundtoys, urs saturation to help get closer but it is not there still. There is still too much brittle harshness in the harmonics or something. Softube is closest imo but there is a lot to be desired still.

[Cap'n Spanky]

... At last you could bring your reasons, the kind of sound you are after and probably could not get yet, and so on....
Cheers

Or we could just ignore his assinine comment.

[Hink]

winner of?

sorry, but vandal sounds like "alpargata"...

AT3 and gtr4 sounds bad too...

waves gtr3 clean are not to bad...

Ampsims are not good enought today...

You probably never touched a real amp in your life mate, otherwise you would not say such thing, Or maybe I have lost my ear's power and sensitivity ! but anyway I'm enjoying Vandal and then all the other amp sims as well, and though Vandal's sound is best to my ears now, but I can not say that all the other amp sims out there sounds bad. BTW, just out of curiosity, have you ever miced a real amp??, perhaps a high gain amp before ? well I'm using 'em the real miced amps almost everyday beside all my amp sims, and guess what, while getting some specific tones and sounds are somehow impossible or at least very difficult with amp sims, but sometime I also feel the opposite that some sounds I can get from amp sims are even better than the real deal, moreover, no one should forget the amp sims ease of use, flexibility and great tone palette as well. Anyway as I said before tastes are different, but coming here and suddenly blow the trumpet that all amp sims sounds BAD ! is not logical, not even funny! . At last you could bring your reasons, the kind of sound you are after and probably could not get yet, and so on.. By the way, though some amp sims are great and in a recorded track almost no one can recognize which is which, but Amp sims are not there to replace the real amps, they are there to help us play with tones to get new result and probably influence us sometime to be more creative..

Cheers

I've a jcm800, laney LC50II, twin reverb and ac30...

sorry, I do not want to generate a flame war, but let's be honest, I have tried these ampsim, and none has convinced me...
To play guitar in my spare time is ok, but not for production. sorry, will stop here to not create a flame war.

Cheeers!

perhaps you could share some of your music with us? FWIW I hate the idea of amp sims, I own AT3, GR4, Vandal (by default as I'm a samp user) and GTR3.5, I love them all. It's the concept Of "simulation" I do not care for, there's nothing "simulated" about my tone. (please feel free to check my page, but good luck guessing what is amps and what isn't) Currently for amps I own a Mesa Boogie SOB and a Marshall tube stereo pre-amp, last year I sold a Fender Blues Jr. (sunburst) and have played through and/or owned many, many more. (I'm 50 and been playing since I was 12). Of course I have sansamp as well and for my boogie I have a Weber attenuator.

So called sims do not have to convince me, they need to inspire me, I'm not really looking for a sound just like 1971, or rhe 80s, or a Plexi (which I had a nice hot rodded plexi in the day). I play guitar, I don't play amps, I don't play sims and to be honest I have found that even unplugged I love playing guitar and get inspired.

You name 4 amps, each one is limited and specialized in it's own right which means so isn't your tonal capabilities. Are the 4 amps combos? (I know the Laney is) It's beyond me why someone who cares about playing limits themselves by cliche blanketed statements, why instead of looking for what you do not like instead of finding things you do like. (if you tell me you do not like anything at all about sims and can't find a good tone I'll blame you for that and not the sims).

I don't look at other sims to see if they are accurately representing the named amps (hence why I do not like sims as a term), if I sit and play and get lost for a minute or two jamming that's all the convincing I need. This is why I love Vandal because I don't have to go picking a model, a cab etc...instead I can dial in the tones I want old school and so far it keeps on impressing me and is more and more my go to for writing (not recording, recording I record up to 7 tracks with one being dry for re-amping)

Let me remind you of this statement you made "To play guitar in my spare time is ok, but not for production.".

That says to me you find sounds you like, but for some reason it's not good for production (which isn't even close to logical, in fact the amps you name have inherent qualities that probably actually make them less suited for production and more suited for live use).

So what exactly are YOU not able to do with sims that thousands of guitarists can? Maybe the problem isn't the sims.

[siriusbliss]

Yeah, for me it's not about simulation as much as being able to model the sound I want.

I use VHT's and Boogies myself, but am enjoying Vandal a lot for it's tweakability.

Greg

[Ken McLaren]

winner of?

sorry, but vandal sounds like "alpargata"...

AT3 and gtr4 sounds bad too...

waves gtr3 clean are not to bad...

Ampsims are not good enought today...

Pylorca I only agree with one thing you said,

"Ampsims are not good enought today..."

Ampsims are not good enough, my own included. However, they are getting better...You will never get an ampsim to model a real world amp to 100% accuracy...No matter what kinda cluster fluff companies try to sell you on. Some companies seem to make the bold statement that their "imitations" are the same as the real thing. Thats just a load of Crap. There is only one way to 100% get a Marshall sound, and thats by using a Marshall. However, there is also only one way to get a 100% Vandal sound, thats by using Vandal...Its a 2 way street...

I hope the time will come where amp sims will come into their own and stop being looked at as cheap imitations. So long as we try to imitate tone instead of innovate tone, amp sims will always be a looked at by some as cheap imitations.

Vandal is an innovative product and has taken a step forward in terms of Cab Modeling. Cabinet modeling seems to be the new battleground...So to answer your question..."winner of?" IMO Its the winner of Cabinet modeling...
and what the hell does "alpargata" mean?
KM

[eduardo_b]

A completely authentic amp sim that is modeled on real world circuits would likely be an incredible resource sponge and not likely run well on any but the most powerful systems. The cpu load would be quite enormous, as anyone using Waves Arts' Tube Saturator can attest to. I assume one of the reasons amp sims fall short is the developer's recognition of how few people might be able to actually run such a plug on a typical system.

[thankyou]

the title of this thread is a bit leading

[Ken McLaren]

@EDUARDO...
Resource usage is always a factor...at least for me...But I assume everyone else watches that like hawks too. I'm not really sure that we entirely understand everything that is happening in a tube amp anyways, I certainly don't. That opens up the discussion of whether to model each component, or just shape the wave?
KM

[Hink]

winner of?

sorry, but vandal sounds like "alpargata"...

AT3 and gtr4 sounds bad too...

waves gtr3 clean are not to bad...

Ampsims are not good enought today...

Pylorca I only agree with one thing you said,

"Ampsims are not good enought today..."

Ampsims are not good enough, my own included. However, they are getting better...You will never get an ampsim to model a real world amp to 100% accuracy...No matter what kinda cluster fluff companies try to sell you on. Some companies seem to make the bold statement that their "imitations" are the same as the real thing. Thats just a load of Crap. There is only one way to 100% get a Marshall sound, and thats by using a Marshall. However, there is also only one way to get a 100% Vandal sound, thats by using Vandal...Its a 2 way street...

I hope the time will come where amp sims will come into their own and stop being looked at as cheap imitations. So long as we try to imitate tone instead of innovate tone, amp sims will always be a looked at by some as cheap imitations.

Vandal is an innovative product and has taken a step forward in terms of Cab Modeling. Cabinet modeling seems to be the new battleground...So to answer your question..."winner of?" IMO Its the winner of Cabinet modeling...
and what the hell does "alpargata" mean?
KM

Boogie>Weber Mini Mas>Cab IR's or Marshall pre>cab IR's


those there acme thingamabobs aint half bad

[Ken McLaren]

HAHA LOL Hink...Its good to see you...Actually Hink the image below is more accurate..


haha


So Sascha...What do you mean by 'interactive filter bank' and the interactive part I am assuming is controlled by an envelop follower?

I deduced that from this statement..
"So we basically treat the filters as a function of the voice coil travelling back & forth (originally a mass-spring system), where the nonlinearities are dependent on the coil parameters as well as the membrane."

So my assumption is that what controls the voice coil indirectly is how hard or soft the player is playing...My thoughts are that some of the non linearity you're speaking of, which obviously does exist, can be further controlled to some degree through attack and and release of the envelope follower. For example what I am thinking is that a harder more tense voice coil would have a greater resistance thus being harder to move, so the attack would be slower..Also in that regard using the same type of analogy, one could also assume that enclosed cabs would also exhibit a slower attack time as a result of the back pressure on the speaker. Although I don't know how much effect that has on Voice coil movement..

So, am I out to lunch here? I see no other way of controlling that filter bank short of analyzing the signal for frequency strength...That to me would be relatively intensive...Correct?

Just fishing...
Also, I hope you daughter does well. My son had a grave stone fall on him and bent him backwards..He's alright to this day...Alright enough to piss me off every single hour of the day... This is me when in my development room...under normal circumstances...
This is me with Jeff under normal circumstances...
haha

Kids are incredibly strong...So I hope all goes well.

KM

[pylorca]

winner of?

sorry, but vandal sounds like "alpargata"...

AT3 and gtr4 sounds bad too...

waves gtr3 clean are not to bad...

Ampsims are not good enought today...

You probably never touched a real amp in your life mate, otherwise you would not say such thing, Or maybe I have lost my ear's power and sensitivity ! but anyway I'm enjoying Vandal and then all the other amp sims as well, and though Vandal's sound is best to my ears now, but I can not say that all the other amp sims out there sounds bad. BTW, just out of curiosity, have you ever miced a real amp??, perhaps a high gain amp before ? well I'm using 'em the real miced amps almost everyday beside all my amp sims, and guess what, while getting some specific tones and sounds are somehow impossible or at least very difficult with amp sims, but sometime I also feel the opposite that some sounds I can get from amp sims are even better than the real deal, moreover, no one should forget the amp sims ease of use, flexibility and great tone palette as well. Anyway as I said before tastes are different, but coming here and suddenly blow the trumpet that all amp sims sounds BAD ! is not logical, not even funny! . At last you could bring your reasons, the kind of sound you are after and probably could not get yet, and so on.. By the way, though some amp sims are great and in a recorded track almost no one can recognize which is which, but Amp sims are not there to replace the real amps, they are there to help us play with tones to get new result and probably influence us sometime to be more creative..

Cheers

I've a jcm800, laney LC50II, twin reverb and ac30...

sorry, I do not want to generate a flame war, but let's be honest, I have tried these ampsim, and none has convinced me...
To play guitar in my spare time is ok, but not for production. sorry, will stop here to not create a flame war.

Cheeers!

perhaps you could share some of your music with us? FWIW I hate the idea of amp sims, I own AT3, GR4, Vandal (by default as I'm a samp user) and GTR3.5, I love them all. It's the concept Of "simulation" I do not care for, there's nothing "simulated" about my tone. (please feel free to check my page, but good luck guessing what is amps and what isn't) Currently for amps I own a Mesa Boogie SOB and a Marshall tube stereo pre-amp, last year I sold a Fender Blues Jr. (sunburst) and have played through and/or owned many, many more. (I'm 50 and been playing since I was 12). Of course I have sansamp as well and for my boogie I have a Weber attenuator.

So called sims do not have to convince me, they need to inspire me, I'm not really looking for a sound just like 1971, or rhe 80s, or a Plexi (which I had a nice hot rodded plexi in the day). I play guitar, I don't play amps, I don't play sims and to be honest I have found that even unplugged I love playing guitar and get inspired.

You name 4 amps, each one is limited and specialized in it's own right which means so isn't your tonal capabilities. Are the 4 amps combos? (I know the Laney is) It's beyond me why someone who cares about playing limits themselves by cliche blanketed statements, why instead of looking for what you do not like instead of finding things you do like. (if you tell me you do not like anything at all about sims and can't find a good tone I'll blame you for that and not the sims).

I don't look at other sims to see if they are accurately representing the named amps (hence why I do not like sims as a term), if I sit and play and get lost for a minute or two jamming that's all the convincing I need. This is why I love Vandal because I don't have to go picking a model, a cab etc...instead I can dial in the tones I want old school and so far it keeps on impressing me and is more and more my go to for writing (not recording, recording I record up to 7 tracks with one being dry for re-amping)

Let me remind you of this statement you made "To play guitar in my spare time is ok, but not for production.".

That says to me you find sounds you like, but for some reason it's not good for production (which isn't even close to logical, in fact the amps you name have inherent qualities that probably actually make them less suited for production and more suited for live use).

So what exactly are YOU not able to do with sims that thousands of guitarists can? Maybe the problem isn't the sims.

I want to explain, but I've not enought time, (in a few hours i'm going to travel...

So, some points in that:

1) AmpSims add aliasing, so much alias... very much... aliasing causes ear fatigue, ,less definition, less clarity...

2) Ampsims do something ugly in the high frequencies, a fizz noise, but this can be treated, but not quite.

3) Ampsims not have that gentle warmit, that sustain, or that feeling when you play. Not the same

4) Ampsims sound like plastic....



I use ampsims, but my ears, insult me every time I use them

[futurefields]

Pylorca, which sims do you think are the least offendors, as far as tone, sustain etc.... ?

[pylorca]

Pylorca, which sims do you think are the least offendors, as far as tone, sustain etc.... ?

mmmmhh.... i like softube vintage amp romm for clean tone... TH1 for some distortion... GT4 for some plex.... but none convinces me at all... revalver is good too, but i dont know...

ampsim are very good to play without disturbing the neighbors... but if you want good tone when tracking you must use a real real amp...

[Steviebone]

It has been my experience that most people that claim all amp sims are 'BAD' don't have a good front end in the first place.

To get good sounds from an amp sim you MUST have the proper interface, preferably a good CLASS A preamp (with ot without a tube) going through a higher end A/D on a rock solid clock. The 'thin' sound so many complain about is actually the poor signal quality coming from the source itself, not a property of the sim.

Also, gain staging is EXTREMELY important!, another area most guitarists get wrong. In some cases, the input of an amp sim is designed to be a bit overdriven, just like a real tube amp input. And in any DAW environment there are numerous gain stages between the guitar and the sim. These must ALL be set correctly or the amp sim will not be driven properly.

My rig->guitar->presonus eureka->lucid A/D->DAW->track->FX send->vandal

The single biggest improvement I ever made in my sim rig was the addition of the eureka and Lucid A/D. Night and Day! Now even the most ardent tube freaks are amazed when the play on Vandal or Studio Devil Pro. Forget using cheap end HI-Z inputs and consumer grade A/D's. GIGO (garbage in garbage out)

[hibidy]

examples?