How do YOU feel about your music being pirated?

[whyterabbyt]

fjell_strom quoth Again, the master debater has lept into ring!

Can you say that three times really quickly?

I love it. If only I had another lifetime to devote to grapling the genius of your half-page posts!

But you seemed to be having so much fun with your own half-page posts.

Were I seriously to respond in length and kind to your short novel, do you think the issue of music piracy would ever be likely to be seen again?

Yes.

Sadly, because you're, well, you, anything I wrote would too likely only be stuffed down your holy cannon in preparation for return fire.

Well you were either going to say that, or something equally lame if I didnt.


Are you really jammed so far up your own hole that you fail to recognise your preference for debating fouls to issues?

Says the man who thinks its more important to debate the relevance of 'archaic language'.

Thank you for again correcting my post as though it were a homework assignment.

You're welcome.

As you know, this is what most people hope will happen to their posts.

Sometimes, I belive that may be so.

And yes, my dear Watson, after blowing your hole for three paragraphs about God-knows-what, I meant the word "quoth".

an utterly ostentatious practice of using some crap archaic form of language long dead..

One word is 'utterly ostentatious' is it. My, you are having to dig deep, aren't you.

If it's any consolation, I thought you did a fantastic job of making a comedic ass of yourself anyhow.

And you seem such a humourless c**t.

[BONES]

All Kaden was trying to point out is that we're in the middle of a major transition in the nature of media and its means of distribution, and that you can't just put the genie back in the bottle - this is a simple statement of fact, and I don't see how arguing morality addresses this.

That is certainly what he was saying but I don't feel that its right. The reason it has flourished is that no-one has tried hard enough to do anything about it. Napster went down easily enough when someone got serious about it and Kazaa have been in court forever. But to my mind they are simply aiding and abetting, or at least conspiring with, the actual thieves. Much like the Pawn Broker who knowingly buys stolen goods, only before the fact.

Morality is what people turn to when they no longer have a leg to stand on

And here was me thinking that morality was the foundation upon which civilization was built. Seems however, that it is really just a fear of being caught and punished.

Just look at illegal drugs: no one uses them since they started putting people in jail for it.

So you feel the same sort of peer pressure to use P2P? I think the big difference is that a lot of people try/use drugs because its illegal, whereas they don't see that they are doing anything either illegal or bad when they use P2P to steal music/movies/etc. Then there's the fact that drug users are never targeted by police, its the suppliers who go to gaol.

This reaction would be much different than if they had come and taken those same things you described. That is why I draw a line between stealing and duplication, and I think it is very important. In fact, I think you'll find the law finds them to be two different offenses with two different penalties.

Yes, just as buglary and shoplifting are two separate offences with different scales of punishment. But they are both stealing. Perhaps it is that I put little value in material possessions but I can't for the life of me understand how you can place so little value on intellectual property.

So, when you claim that music piracy is "taking money out of your pocket", you bend the truth. At best, in your own opinion, it is preventing money from ever ENTERING your pocket, but no one is coming and removing money from you. I think if you worded things more literally and less figuratively, it might help lend credibility to your arguments and opinions.

So it would be less of a crime to divert my pay packet before it was put into my bank account than it would be to remove the money after it had gone in? How the f**k does that work?

But I sense that you are in fact most interested in simply being upset. I sense that being upset interests you more than anything else.

Or maybe I value my opinions a little more highly than my furniture?

Hink, there is a lot of sense in your argument but, honestly, who gives a f**k about the major labels? P2P has a far greater effect on small, independant labels and independant distributors who are now getting squeezed from both ends. And I have been writing, producing and manufacturing my own music for 20 years, its just a lot less money down the drain now than it used to be.

Honestly, Bones...you *need* to look into anger management...anyone who is subject to such blind, unthinking, utterly irrational rage is inevitably going to hurt either themselves or their loved ones.

What? Are you f**king stupid? Read any of my posts, I'm just talking here like the rest of you idiots. Of course, in the relatively shallow depths of my perception, in comparison to your own, it never occurred to me that I could just "suck it up" but perhaps that's because of my natural tendancy to verbosity, or because I watched all-new Frasier last night.

When I download an album in MP3, it doesn't have the same emotional value to me as a CD.

I'd go one step further than that. To me, an "album" of mp3's isn't just free, its worthless and I have never bothered downloading one. At this point in time I have precisely one mp3 on my computer, apart from my own work.

If you all feel that the ONLY way your music can make money is through unit sales via 'industry' channels, then I

I don't know what you've been reading over there in Wonderland but I haven't noticed more than one or two posts here about making money.
Someone brought up free software synths vs commercial software/hardware. It provides an interesting comparison. There is a definite, pervasive view here at KVR that SE synths are devauled by the sheer number of poorly made examples being offerred. i.e. The market is flooded and it is very difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. That is one of my biggest gripes about mp3 and the internet - it requires considerably more time and effort to sort through the krap and find the stuff that interests you because any idiot with garageband or some piece of krap that comes bundled with a soundcard can make some dreadful piece of shit and put it up. Along with the lack of control of ownership, there is an even bigger lack of quality control. At least when you walk into a record shop you are looking at product that has passed several quality filters before arriving on the shelf.
For me the bottom line is that if it came to pass, as I believe it may, that we were unable to find a label to release our next album there is no way that I would ever put up a full mp3 of any of our work on a website. I would certainly continue to write songs and play live whenever I could but putting mp3's up on the 'net for idiots to download interests me not at all. And that's from someone whose website gets more than 150,000 hits a month.

[Amberience]

I'd go one step further than that. To me, an "album" of mp3's isn't just free, its worthless and I have never bothered downloading one. At this point in time I have precisely one mp3 on my computer, apart from my own work.

So let me get this straight.. you consider mp3's to be useless, and yet, you're willing to give away mp3's like Candy?

Seems to me your contributions to KvR are equally worthless.

[herodotus]

This thread is starting to remind me of an abortion debate between a Christian Fundamentalist and a Lesbian Feminist.

Only without the good natured humor.

[nuffink]

This thread is starting to remind me of an abortion debate between a Christian Fundamentalist and a Lesbian Feminist.

Which one's BONES?

[Amberience]

The lesbian feminist of course. Always angry.

[BONES]

So let me get this straight.. you consider mp3's to be useless, and yet, you're willing to give away mp3's like Candy?

Huh? Haven't I just spent considerable effort saying that I am completely unwilling to give full mp3's away? Just to explain, the reason is that I value our work a little more highly than that. i.e. The end dosn't justify the means.

[hoffy]

I think the big difference is that a lot of people try/use drugs because its illegal

i use drugs coz i love to get f**ked up

[kaden]

I would certainly continue to write songs and play live whenever I could but putting mp3's up on the 'net for idiots to download interests me not at all

So really, it's just laziness? You have *that* much respect for your music that 'writing songs and playing live whenever (you) can' is you *only* alternative to traditional distribution methods?

Doesn't seem that you're all that passionate about it, does it?

Now, remember, I'm a guy who was a working professional musician for 25 years. A.F. of M. local 149, just like big city musicians. You could spend an entire career as a jobber, and actually live respectably and never once set foot in a recording studio, much less sell product under your own name. If you wanted even a remote chance of a contract, you spent a lot of money on gear, a lot of time rehearsing, and played a lot of live gigs. You *had* to build an enormous fanbase to even get looked at by an A&R guy, and because there was no internet, you built the fanbase in person, by hand. Ya did whatever you had to...it was a blast. Sometimes it even paid off: Attic Records would send you into an 8 track studio to do a demo. Then you'd discover that the bassist couldn't play to a click, the band would break up acrimoniously, and you'd start again.

Remember...this was just to try and get a recording contract: all you *really* had at this point was a live show.

When I see the current crop of laptop producers tossing out "It's not worth being a musician if people are pirating my recordings" attitude, I laugh myself incontinent.

K

[Steven West]

I laugh myself double Depends full.

We're just traveling troubadors that don't even have to get out of our house coats to play to royalty these days. If some rich Arab sheik gets his servants to burn a Dual DVD of my freaky shit so he can play it while he drives his viper to the club - I'm just happy he's happy and getting off on something that was in my head only weeks before. Sure, I could make a few bucks if I applied myself - but I like the fact of how much I make record labels loose by not applying themselves to secure me.

If I wanted to get rich - I'd become a male prostitute in Kuwait!

[willum]

I give my music away for free out of a sheer love for humanity. Forget the millions I could be making, the jewellery, drugs, cars, beautiful women throwing themselves at....WAIT A MINUTE, WHAT THE HELL AM I THINKING?!?!?

[derek]

ive read this thread up to i think page 9 and until then, i think an important point is missed (sorry if it came up later on and i repeat it):


people are talking about "absolute" solutions here. i doubt there is or ever will be such a thing. man has always been good at making its own world increasingly complicated and i think that is just what will happen.

meaning, there will be no such thing as a complete, 100% "information revolution". thats just an impossible thing. if we talk about that, you cant limit it to music. its also literature, software, films, journalism (!!), education...you expect all that to work on some idealist basis just because someone came up with the fancy term "information revolution"? wont happen. especially not when the only real argument against copyright is "i dont want to lose control about what enters and leaves my computer". to use some peoples own words, get real, you already lost. joe average today has next to NO control over what his computer does. that battle has been lost long ago. now deal with it.


on the other hand, theres the "moralist approach". thats the side i personally stand on, i make music for a living, have been doing so for 15 years, and even though im a realist and have a plan B and C in case it doesnt work out, i will fight with all my power until the last minute ;-)

but of course the moralist approach is unrealistic too. p2p wont go away, it will always survive in form or another. the question is not, how does one get rid of the beast, but only, how does one keep it sufficiently under control so that it doesnt grow out of proportion.


and thats actually what happens right now, has been happening for quite some time, and it will just continue to do so. when people steal from supermarkets, they install cameras. when cameras are installed, people get better at stealing. more cameras. to be continued :-)

that information revolution has been The Next Bing Thing To Happen also during the 80s and early 90s with all its (by todays standards) unprotected and thus widely pirated software (which indeed kill off some very promising companies and computer models, too bad). here we are, 20 years and some actual, different revolutions later, and what happened? nothing changed. companies protect their software. people crack the protection. comapanies invent a new protection. companies sue crackers. new crackers follow. everybody bitches about it and theorizes about some ultimate solution that will actually never arrive (see also politics and democrary, man and woman, pc and apple for this one ;-)


theres really no reason to expect that this will change and one side will all of a sudden "give up". P2P, after a long trend upwards, has been going down a bit lately - theres now legal alternatives, people are sometimes sued for downloading so theres some consciousness being built for intellectual property. it seems that, while p2p isnt "beaten", it is a little more under control. thats as good as it gets. and its probably good enough, for both sides actually.

expect swings to both sides in this balance, but this is basically what it is, and it is here to stay. a nice, complicated addition to our nicely complicated world :-)


oh, and personally, i think a reason for optimism and the way to go for professional musicians (and the evil industry et al) are mobile phones. mobile phones are the logical successor of the ipod. highspeed 3G connections on these phones will give them all time access to databases like itunes. now its just a question of making the process simple and ultra-cheap enough that nobody cares anymore. imagine that you could download whatever song in great quality, whereever you are, directly to your library, for just a couple of cents (and i dont mean 99 cents). would anyone still care about piracy? no. it would not be worth the hassle since the legal way would be so cheap and convenient.

so thats the homework for the industry (the small and the big ones alike). make this a reality, and make it so that such low prices can work. it will take a looong time (mostly because of the industry being so ignorant about this whole thing), but it will happen.


aint that nice :-)

[_starcraft_]

morals?
if u could just walk in and out with groceries from a supermarket without any risk of being punished u wouldn't see even an old granny paying for her carrots.
thats the situation on p2ps....yes there are a few record labels fileing law suits....but its should really be government law defending virtual products.
u can't really expect a citizen to defend himself and his work.
hearing about all the economic and employment crisis in the european market.....and seeing all these revenues go to waste to me it just don't make sense.
the music industry offers mp3s for as low as 79c per song and the software iundustry has reduced its prices drastically to meet all budgets. living expenses instead keep going up and up.
there's just no more excuse anymore. ppl steal because they CAN. why pay when u can get it for free? that is the situation. if there was punishment there would be next to no theft.
just look at the fall in p2p numbers every time there is a lawsuit.

ps: btw i'm all in favour of p2p ....but to exchange legal files.

[Benedict]

I agree. I read a book by a top economist years ago about real e-commerce and this is what he put forward as a workable model:

Tons and tons of micro-transactions so smalll that we don't care about any one. As a result there is so mush money flinging about that everyone benefits.

I care about spending $20 to buy a CD but don't care in the slightest to drive my car to the library (and back again) borrow a CD that I might only listen to one.

I think that there have to be 2 shifts made here

1. Record companies need to start releasing music that is pay to play at a very low price, yes about 2c/track. This of course needs faster bandwidth but that is almost in reach.

2. Consumers have to start realizing that stealing is counterproductive to thei own ends. The number of ppl who steal music yet bitch that the music co won't give them anything new and exciting is immense. Well of course not because you'll just steal it. 40 year olds don't steal music anywhere near as much so Michael Buble is a good business decision.

As for stealing, if you steal my music that I worked hard to make and could be an income stream does that give me the right to steal your car? It should. Oh hang on you'd say no because that would piss you off and deprive you of the ability to get to work to earn your income stream.

In this issue we need to have a shift in common sense. That's much harder than bandwidth. All we can do is try.

[munchkin]

I still think equating P2P with the identikit music that dominates the market and the so-called dip in record company profit margins is bogus.

There's no evidence to prove P2P is having these effects. Once a false premise is used to try to prove a point then all factual information is irrelevant to those who believe the false premise. They have their mantra and nothing will disuade them of it - not even evidence to the contrary.

I think that's when these people resort to the straw camel that is morality. Morality is not evidence based it's based on belief. The belief that there needs to be a war on drugs or terrorism, for example, is not based on evidence but on a twisted version of events. This unsubstantiated belief is then labelled, 'morality' and sold to us as, 'the truth'. I think that blaming P2P for the music industries woes falls into the same category. We cannot know because there has been no evidence one way or another.

My opinion is a response to the mantra that claims that P2P is affecting the music industry detrimentally. The onus is on those who are making these claims to prove that they are true. Otherwise their opinions are based on hearsay and prejudice.