What makes analog so analog?

[Robert Randolph]

Hrm. You're not listening for "noise" gol, you're listening for distortion. Generally a distortion of high-end that often sounds harsh or "fuzzy".

and the "only using 4 bits" would assume you're audio is at what -70 to -72 db? If it's anywhere above that you're using more than 4-bits... and Im sure you know that.

Anyways, Ive done quite a few blind tests, and there is a big difference. Properly applied dither generally helps the low end feel more solid and smoother high end... it's not really about "hearing" noise or quantifying some sort of distortion through your ears. It's the same feeling you get when you feel someone in the room, but you cant hear/see them. It's very clear though once you become accustomed to the differences.

[valley]

Are you saying you don't believe your CD Player has a low pass filter built into it?

since I don't see any reason for them to, I don't believe it, no.

Can't be bothered to google hard:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/spe ... laudio.php

[tony tony chopper]

Hrm. You're not listening for "noise" gol, you're listening for distortion. Generally a distortion of high-end that often sounds harsh or "fuzzy".

call it what you want. I always called 8bit audio 'noisy'.

Noise: SOUND; especially : one that lacks agreeable musical quality or is noticeably unpleasant

[tony tony chopper]

Can't be bothered to google hard:

so it'd be about a lowpass above 20khz? What are you missing, considering common headphones/speakers don't go above 20khz neither?

[Robert Randolph]

Can't be bothered to google hard:

so it'd be about a lowpass above 20khz? What are you missing, considering common headphones/speakers don't go above 20khz neither?

aliasing can be heard below 20khz though. and so can other artifacts.

[tony tony chopper]

aliasing can be heard below 20khz though. and so can other artifacts

uh? aliasing from what? the data on the CD is 44khz, if it contains aliasing, I don't see how you'd remove it, nor detect what's aliasing and what's music.

[seamoss]

Ok…..so let me ask this.

If the vsti's are now capable of producing the same sounds as an hardware analog synth, then when did we get there? When did they actually reach the level where they are able to emulate the true analog sound?

What vsti's can do it and which ones claim to do it but can't?

[peejunk]

aliasing can be heard below 20khz though. and so can other artifacts

uh? aliasing from what? the data on the CD is 44khz, if it contains aliasing, I don't see how you'd remove it, nor detect what's aliasing and what's music.

For an audio app/plugin programmer you seem to be quite a noob to what is considered pretty basic DSP knowledge. Spectre aliases are an artifact of D/A (and A/D) conversion, they don't exsist in the original signal. The LP filter removes them.

Visually -- it removes jagged edges making (ideally) your sinewave all smooth & shiny, instead of being like a weird perpetual staircase.

These artifacts (repetitions of original spectre), allthough they fall above 20KHz can be heard and have effect on listening. EVERY D/A converter has antialiasing filter after it, well except some extremely simple ones used for generating some simple voltage levels etc. but all audio D/A anyway, and some (like Sigma-Delta or some oversammpling 96/192KHz ones) have another FIR (much alike your sincxx FIR filter) or IIR filter before the conversion stage.

@sami: BassStation (as well as K-Station, A-Station, SuperNova etc) is completely digital. Liquid Analogue is just a name for proprietary DSP analogue modelling technology. Everything else you read is utter BS.

[ericj23]

bass station is analogue - might have dco's like the waldorf pulse but all the signal control is done using solid statre electronics - do some googling

now i am a noob about spectre alaising - but i thought the appeared at roughly sampling rate - note frequency - which means that for all but the highest frequencies they are out of hearing range on a cd player - and just dont exist (to our hearing) when at 96 khz

or does the alaising produce its own harmincos that operate at other frequencies ??

[valley]

or does the alaising produce its own harmincos that operate at other frequencies ??

yup.

You get a kind of 'mirror' effect where high harmonics are reflected around the cutoff point so they are heard as lower frequency and typically inharmonic tones.

If you draw a sine wave then look at the waveform you create when marking dots on that sinewave at a regularity less than half a cycle you'll see how it works.

[Sami]

@sami: BassStation (as well as K-Station, A-Station, SuperNova etc) is completely digital. Liquid Analogue is just a name for proprietary DSP analogue modelling technology. Everything else you read is utter BS.

The BassStation was released before "virtual analog" was widely available. I don't know what to believe really, the manual states it's analog and I've read other saying it's analog and others saying it's digital. If it really is digital then it's very amazing piece of work! I've read about the liquid analog thing and maybe they implemented then in the new machines that are completely v/a? Well anyway, if it's digital then it makes my comparison even more interesting since then it's basically the same as the vst-i.

[valley]

The bass station was analogue. I'm sure the oscillators were digitally timed, even if they weren't digitally produced, but the filter section at the very least was fully analogue.

[nuffink]

@sami: BassStation (as well as K-Station, A-Station, SuperNova etc) is completely digital. Liquid Analogue is just a name for proprietary DSP analogue modelling technology. Everything else you read is utter BS.

The BassStation was released before "virtual analog" was widely available. I don't know what to believe really, the manual states it's analog and I've read other saying it's analog and others saying it's digital. If it really is digital then it's very amazing piece of work! I've read about the liquid analog thing and maybe they implemented then in the new machines that are completely v/a? Well anyway, if it's digital then it makes my comparison even more interesting since then it's basically the same as the vst-i.

Sami,

Here ya go http://www.sonicstate.com/synth/novationbass.cfm

b.t.w. when some kid tries to tell the bloke who wrote FL Studio that "you seem to be quite a noob to what is considered pretty basic DSP knowledge" you can safely ignore anything else he has to say.

[Sam C Spacey]

Ok right we seem to have some guy's who deny or refuse to believe that analog has something that digital just doesnt have yet.

It's not about db for db or volume...it's a certain amount of body an analog oscilator has that a digital 1 does not. I don't know how many of you release music or play live... but a vsti bass line is soooo hard to get anywhere near the same impact on a track than an analog one. It seems to have more body, vsti's just sound weak... and it takes a lot of equing and compression to get them to the same amount of impact, by then the vsti is a lot louder than the initial analog recording. I'm talking about 1 osc just 1... nothing else.

I have the imposcar, I love it... but it's nothing compared to the real one we used to have for sheer presence, although the vsti does work all the time he he. The minimoog I used to make the sample cd I'm woking on eats the Auturia and the Minimax for creamware. I sold my creamware with Minamax because although it sounded like the Minimoog, it didn't hold itself in the mix like one, neither does the auturia. I'm finding it's more the oscilators than it is the filters that gives analog its power.

Ok....Flame me

[Joxer the Mighty]

Ok....Flame me

No flame from me, I agree with you 100%. I can't help but wonder how many of the people who claim there is no difference have actually sat down and played an analog synth side by side with a vsti.

Still...I love all my softsynths.