ROLI's writing on the wall happened

[pdxindy]

Damn. I don't like either one of you two right now. I was happily ignoring the M1 Macs.

I guess now I have to see if there's anything I want from 9/14 announcement.

It will be in Oct - Nov that the next new Macs will be announced.

[BONES]

blah blah misdirect handwave black is white because i say it is im so clever blah blah stupid bullshit reference to something that contradicts what i say it does blah blah black is white

TRANSLATION - Whyterabbit doesn't have a leg to stand on and he knows it.

He only had to explain one simple thing and he couldn't even manage that. So sad, too bad.

[BONES]

With none of the interfaces Bones mentioned I can get such a big track count with such a low latency at the same time as with my RME interfaces (the ones I tried and many more). That alone is worth the price for me.

I'd agree if track count had anything to do with it. But it doesn't so I don't.

And in addition I don't have to worry about future OS changes as I know there will be driver support soon after.

You see, this is where it becomes complete bullshit because nobody running Windows ever has to even think about that, let alone wait around for new drivers every time there is a point update to the OS. So it's a good reason to ditch your Mac for a Proper Computer (PC), not to spend even more money than you need to. As Whyterabbit ably demonstrated yesterday - even drivers from 2013 are new enough for the latest build of Windows 10.

And what's with the extra software like Digicheck with multitrack recording features RME provide for all of their Interfaces? To make the great new totalmix work even with very old hardware?

You should see what I got with my Line6 interface - a full suite of effects I can use in real time on any input. When we used that interface, it did all of my live vocal effects with zero latency and I could use foot pedals to change presets and mute the effects between songs. It was amazing! Even the Yamaha interface I had, which I forgot to mention in my list the other night, comes with on-board DSP effects you can assign to each input via a software application running on your computer. The Steinberg UR44c takes that to even greater heights. It is deeply impressive and I doubt anything that came with your RME interface would be any more so. Which isn't to say the stuff that comes with your RME isn't any good, I'm sure it's great. It's just that it's not an uncommon thing, even in $150 interfaces like the Yamaha AG03 and, therefore, not really worth paying a premium for.

Either way, Roli is toast... the body just hasn't stopped twitching yet.

Which, to me, is a really good reason to get your hands on everything of theirs you even think you might want at some point in the future, while it's still being sold. Yet for others, it's a reason to get rid of all your Roli stuff and/or avoid it like the plague for absolutely no valid reason. It's absurd (and very much on topic, for a change). I reckon I've got enough Roli stuff to keep me happy for as far into the future as I dare to look. I'm sure I'll get bored with it long before it ceases to work.

I was the same when I realised Waldorf had stopped making Rocket, a year or so after I'd sold mine. It was a "now or never" moment and even though I didn't really need one, I bought one as soon as I found out, just in case.

[poonna]

With none of the interfaces Bones mentioned I can get such a big track count with such a low latency at the same time as with my RME interfaces (the ones I tried and many more). That alone is worth the price for me.

I'd agree if track count had anything to do with it. But it doesn't so I don't.

RME's low-latency performance is real, though. There's a long thread doing benchmark on various audio interfaces on Gearspace. Efficiency of the driver code and probably the design of their own proprietary USB technology play a major part in this, I think (unless you're arguing that code efficiency and hardware design don't matter, which isn't the case). RME is a leader in this space. But as I said, whether this is worth the extra expense depends on each person's use cases.

https://gearspace.com/board/music-compu ... -base.html

[machinesworking]

Either way, Roli is toast... the body just hasn't stopped twitching yet.

Which, to me, is a really good reason to get your hands on everything of theirs you even think you might want at some point in the future, while it's still being sold. Yet for others, it's a reason to get rid of all your Roli stuff and/or avoid it like the plague for absolutely no valid reason. It's absurd (and very much on topic, for a change). I reckon I've got enough Roli stuff to keep me happy for as far into the future as I dare to look. I'm sure I'll get bored with it long before it ceases to work.

I think this has gone on long enough to say it's not going to end by me stating it, but it's got to be stated IMO, just for clarity.

Your argument is that most things work on an OS if you don't wildly upgrade, and Windows drivers have a long shelf life. At least that's what is seems to me to be.

Others are arguing that regardless of that, at some point even Windows deprecates and renders useless old drivers, some things become abandonware etc. and it's best to stick with companies that are healthy so you don't lose things. This of course is very true of people looking to buy an M1 Mac considering Roli might go under before they make drivers for Apple Silicon etc.

What I'm confused by is why either of these standpoints would be controversial at all?


I will say this though, I have a Midisport 4x4 as backup for my MTP/AV here, and it works even though it's not officially supported, the driver for the newer hardware works fine with it, but I in no way would want to 100% trust that it's going to work for much longer. That's all anyone is trying to point out, that you're living on the edge when you use drivers that haven't been updated in 8 years for deprecated hardware. There's not a chance in hell it will get a new one from M-Audio for instance if Windows 11 breaks it.

[Double Tap]

What I'm confused by is why either of these standpoints would be controversial at all?

I think you've misunderstood the motivation behind the last seven pages of this thread.

Some arguments are pro-social - effectively two people who feel they're on the same side ("we both like music production so you must be cool too") disagreeing about something. That creates a dissonance which needs to be resolved and that usually happens by either resolving the issue ("oh, it was a misunderstanding, actually we agree") or ignoring it, or deciding that the other person wasn't really like them after all.

Other arguments come entirely from a non-social perspective - it doesn't matter who is on the other side because they are irrelevant, they're probably people who exist ("but they're not like me"). There's no dissonance because there's no connection, so there's no need for resolution. The motivation for arguing is mostly about self-image, and articulating and defending your world view and often defining it in opposition to other world views. It doesn't matter if no one else agrees - in a way, that's almost the point: it's comforting to see the opposition is wrong-people because that proves you're right-people. Finding common ground defeats the point of arguing because if you agree with wrong-people, maybe you're not as right as you thought, and that would be potentially catastrophic for your self-image.

And often the same person can have both approaches in different parts of their lives. It's also why humanising your opponent, or making your opponent see you as a person like them, is a big part of conflict resolution.

[Angus_FX]

That's a really thoughtful, insightful post @Double Tap. One that perhaps should be pinned to the top of every forum, every thread, from Mac vs PC to Brexit. I don't suppose you have any links to recommended blogs on the topic - would be helpful to a few friends who don't have any reason to visit KvR.

[Double Tap]

That's very kind of you Angus. Not sure which blogs might be helpful but this page is quite good for some of the ideas behind it https://www.simplypsychology.org/social ... heory.html (the whole site is basically a compressed undergraduate degree in psychology) and this is good for talking about some of the things that happen online like disinhibition http://www-usr.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/conflict.html

[CinningBao]

I couldn't agree more with Angus - it's like there people who believe they are right, no matter what, and there are those open to the idea that there might be another way to think about a thing. What we see here are folks from the first group 'simmering' their view by disagreeing with everyone else. Double Tap captured it very well with the phrase "it's comforting to see the opposition is wrong-people because that proves you're right-people."

KVR's a weird mess of autists, artists, technicians and developers and as much I'd like us to all 'get along', it ain't gonna happen while <parents perpetuate grandiose egos in their children and global mental health services aren't aligned with people's actual issues and feed drugs to instead of inviting changes of behaviour and thinking>. People can appear to be dicks when in fact they just don't know any other way of communicating.

The best we can do is ignore those voices we don't want to engage with.

On topic, I looked at the Seaboards a few years ago but my super-poordom couldn't afford them. And to be honest, I felt the playability was little 'tough'? I'd want it a little softer. I wonder who will develop the next squidgey keyboard/touch interface.

[Amberience]

That's very kind of you Angus. Not sure which blogs might be helpful but this page is quite good for some of the ideas behind it https://www.simplypsychology.org/social ... heory.html (the whole site is basically a compressed undergraduate degree in psychology) and this is good for talking about some of the things that happen online like disinhibition http://www-usr.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/conflict.html

Very cool. I like this sort of stuff.

For me, I'm quite accepting of the various expressions we see online; I guess I like the chaotic nature of it. I'm not a huge fan of a top-down dynamic that seeks to oust non-conformists and punish outsiders.

That may or may not be related to the subject of the thread

[Angus_FX]

You need to write your own... NO! NOT LIKE THAT!

[machinesworking]

What I'm confused by is why either of these standpoints would be controversial at all?

I think you've misunderstood the motivation behind the last seven pages of this thread.

Some arguments are pro-social - effectively two people who feel they're on the same side ("we both like music production so you must be cool too") disagreeing about something. That creates a dissonance which needs to be resolved and that usually happens by either resolving the issue ("oh, it was a misunderstanding, actually we agree") or ignoring it, or deciding that the other person wasn't really like them after all.

Other arguments come entirely from a non-social perspective - it doesn't matter who is on the other side because they are irrelevant, they're probably people who exist ("but they're not like me"). There's no dissonance because there's no connection, so there's no need for resolution. The motivation for arguing is mostly about self-image, and articulating and defending your world view and often defining it in opposition to other world views. It doesn't matter if no one else agrees - in a way, that's almost the point: it's comforting to see the opposition is wrong-people because that proves you're right-people. Finding common ground defeats the point of arguing because if you agree with wrong-people, maybe you're not as right as you thought, and that would be potentially catastrophic for your self-image.

And often the same person can have both approaches in different parts of their lives. It's also why humanising your opponent, or making your opponent see you as a person like them, is a big part of conflict resolution.

Great post!
Recently some friend posted in another forum the question "Ever had a strong opinion about something that was later proven wrong with more/better information?"

It's an interesting part of human nature, we seem to hate being wrong, I mean really hate it. What's weird about it is if you actually look at what happens when you're right VS wrong, being wrong is a much more rewarding experience, you learn something new, and you no longer carry around and spread misinformation. Regardless we hate it, and personally I think it relates to childhood, children often are wrong, they get corrected by adults all the time. At some point in adulthood we lose our ability to be wrong, be slightly embarrassed, take in the new information and move on. So piling on your post, I think this is a huge red flag for me when talking to people online, if they can't ever concede a point, then they're probably not capable of being wrong, or being flexible at all.

If you read enough philosophy you understand this is the way it’s supposed to be, you're supposed to defend your positions on things, but you're also supposed to be aware that it's just a position. This is how we change their unreasonable beliefs, by being confronted with opposing opinions, but it’s sure fun to act like whatever your opinion is now is the absolute pinnacle of logical thought and studied conclusions!

[nix808]

No-

--yes Bones is rightfully wrong, with or without exceptions


... and old enough to know better than proving so

[pinki]

Oh man I just can't wait fo the "hippy shit" phrase.

I have to confess that the.... EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE ATTITUDE ALL THE TIME!!!!!....approach is kinda entertaining.

[billcarroll]

KVR has become a cesspool of the same people crowing day and night in an attempt to prove how right they are and how much they know about every damn topic.

I appreciate this since it keeps me away from KVR, for the most part. So, thank you. You know who you are.