Legality of distributing sampled synths

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ghettosynth wrote:Corel .... blatantly stole the photograph from Brideman's digital image collection which Bridgeman licensed for a fee.

They then went on to include this photo in their own products. Bridgeman was the only entity licensed to make images of the paintings by the museums where the works were held. In other words, you can't just go take a picture of these paintings because, even though they are in the public domain, they are in museums which may not allow you to take such pictures. So Bridgeman was able to prove that the photo in Corel's library came from Bridgemans own commercial product.

This case does span both U.S. and U.K. law and U.K. law was used to determine whether or not the photos in question were subject to copyright protection and U.S. law was used to determine whether infringement had occurred. It was determined that the photos were not subject to copyright because they lacked sufficient originality.
I'd have been bloody miffed at the outcome of that case if I was Bridgeman!!!

I spend months negotiating with the museum to take photographs of their art collection. I have to explain how I will do them absolute justice and capture them perfectly and respectfully and how they will only be commercially exploited for, shall we say, books on the history of art (and not made into tacky posters, for example, or sold to tacky mags to mess with). No doubt solicitors are involved to draw up a water tight contract between the museum and I. There may even be a clause in the contract that my photographing the painting(s) won't affect them adversely and that I may be liable if it does. I sign. We come to a generous financial arrangement which I am happy to pay because A) I should eventually recoup those costs over time and B) my payment to the museum is going to a good cause, so to speak, and supports the place and its ability to continue showing these paintings for free to the public. A date is set to photograph the picture(s).

I hire in a specialist photographer for the occasion. Not only does he possess the required skills but he has the right equipment including specialist lighting that will illuminate the painting perfectly without affecting the painting(s) or causing any fading.

The date arrives. The museum closes that gallery for the day. The photographer arrives and sets up, no doubt the curator and other museum personnel are in attendance as well. The photographer takes several shots on his digital as tests and eventually, after some trial and error, they are approved so out comes the Hasselblad for the proper photographs.

The photographer takes those shots away and carefully develops the film using years of darkroom experience and creates the most stunning prints. Another appointment is made with the museum to approve them and sign them off. Assuming they are...

I then take out advertising in art circle journals to make it known that I have these fabulous photos for licensed use. So far, it's cost me a lot of money and taken a lot of time (not just mine but the museum's as well)...

And someone comes along and by way of indirection bundles them with their graphics package. I am bloody furious and I sue them ...

And some tosswit old fart of a judge rules against me saying there is "insufficient originality" implying - almost - that I did little other than photocopy the damned thing.

Sorry, I think the judge's decision was totally wrong in this case and creates a nasty precedent. For example, what's to stop someone using, say, VSL's strings in their own library and when they get clobbered by VSL, they cite the Bridgeman vs Corel case claiming there was "insufficient originality" in VSL's recordings/samples of string players just bowing their instruments on single notes! :? :roll:

Hmmmmm...!

Cheers,


Stephen

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Last edited by ghettosynth on Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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So what I understand from this discussion is:

Distributing samples from ROMplers = not cool

Distributing samples from analog synths = cool

This is interesting to me because I'm currently producing a library of sampler instruments from my Moog Voyager and Minimoog Model D and I'd like to sell them.

I don't think there are any issues with copyright on the samples themselves (analogous to making samples from my guitar, i.e. totally fine).

However, will I be able to market these samples as "Moog" samples without incurring the wrath of Moog over trademark issues? Does anyone know what the deal is here? Thanks.

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You will definitely have issues with using the Moog name/trademark. Trademarks are vigorously defended, out of necessity. Let one person use your trademark without a challenge and you've set a precedent that subsequent infringers can cite. Before you know it, your trademark has fallen into the public domain and become a generic word such as "aspirin", which anyone can use.

I remember reading about a daycare center in Florida that had painted pictures of Micky Mouse on their interior walls. Disney sued them and forced them to cover the images up. The public was outraged, but Disney lawyers asserted that they had no choice but to challenge the unauthorized use of their trademarks. (Universal was quick to capitalize on the publicity and offered some of their own trademarked characters to replace Disney's, winning a PR coup.)

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Hmm. Do you think it would be OK if I called the pack "Analog sounds" or something equally generic and then mention in the description that Moogs were used to make them?

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widdershins wrote:Hmm. Do you think it would be OK if I called the pack "Analog sounds" or something equally generic and then mention in the description that Moogs were used to make them?
That could work - with a disclaimer that all registered trademarks are the property of ...." etc.. But best NOT to mention them, however, and refer to 'classic analogues', whatever

The fly in the ointment is the Voyager as it's a current product - you have to also examine your own moral compass...

Are you sampling the presets from the Moog Voyager? Although - technically - there is no real copyright over those (although solicitors could argue the case for that, maybe successfully), sampling those and then making them available could put you in a position of 'unfair advantage'...

I.e. Moog survive by selling their products at £1,000-plus price points and along you come with a CD of those exact same sounds for $25.

Now, Moog might not be bothered, safe in the knowledge that your library is no real competition for the mightiness of the real thing.

Or they might take severe umbrage and issue a C&D on your library!

As always, best to ask them. They can't object to samples from the long defunct MiniMoog but they might be less than pleased about you sampling their Voyager. On the other hand, they MIGHT see your library as an interesting promotional 'taster'. Difficult to know because there are so many legal and other variables.

Just ask for permission.

Cheers,


Stephen

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Last edited by ghettosynth on Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ghettosynth wrote:My understanding is that the key element isn't that the original paintings were simply in the public domain, but that photographs of such paintings MAY not be subject to copyright protection because they are simple images of something not subject to copyright protection.
Normally you can't take a photograph of a painting and distribute it because it violates the copyright of the painter. However if you got the rights to photograph and distribute images of a painting, someone else couldn't distribute your photos because the photos themselves also have a copyright. The key element in that case is definitely that the paintings in question were in the public domain. (hollowsun made some good points why the judgment was a bit unfair, but the company that took the photos should have done their homework and realized they'd have trouble protecting them.)

Plus you keep skipping over the part I keep repeating. Audio sampling law is quite specific, making reference to other copyright laws is useless. The rise of sampling in hip hop repeatedly brought the issue of sampling to the Court's attention. The Courts quickly realized if they had to decide 'originality' on a case by case basis, they'd never have time for anything else. Just accept this, it's really that simple.

Who cares about the 909 kick? You keep talking about it. There are a thousand freely distributed samples around. The law is exactly the way it is so the Courts wouldn't have to hear anyone talking about it. You can't redistribute Goldbaby's samples, period. "But why if I can sample a 909?" If it's that easy, then buy a 909 and distribute all you want. Judgment for Goldbaby, done, simple, what's not to understand?

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widdershins wrote:Hmm. Do you think it would be OK if I called the pack "Analog sounds" or something equally generic and then mention in the description that Moogs were used to make them?
You could offer to promote the Moog Foundation in all sales copy/literature. Maybe even put a 'donate' link on your website?

That might ease the process when you contact them. It may even make them like you so much that they 'keep an eye' on you, in a good way.

Matt

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Last edited by ghettosynth on Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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ghettosynth wrote:I've seen this too much to believe that it's not, in general, fair use. Then again, I've seen large companies like NI use clever(?) names like ate oh wait kit, I'm guessing, to avoid trademark issues. I'd probably go out of my way to avoid any implication that it was a "Moog" sample CD, and I might ask for permission to use their trademark, but I damn sure wouldn't ask them if I could sample their synthesizer.
You should remember that US law and 'fair use' only apply to 4% of the world's population. The other 96% of the human race may have totally different laws and maybe even totally opposite ideas of how all this copyright stuff should work. So I think in this globally connected world it is a good idea to stay fairly defensive in regards to the use of company/product names and samples of sound sources.

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Last edited by ghettosynth on Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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I haven't read any of this, but I'll say this:

If you have to ask about the legality of doing something, just don't do it.
Remember the iLokalypse Summer 2013

Samples and presets and free stuff!

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Dominus wrote:I haven't read any of this, but I'll say this:

If you have to ask about the legality of doing something, just don't do it.
I think many multinational companies that have made millions from legal gambles will disagree with you. So will this guy.

There's lots of money to be made by using the law intelligently and doing things that go right up to the line of legality, but not over it.

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widdershins wrote:So will this guy.
I disagree with that rulling and think that Mr Ainsworth is well out of order.

I have been commissioned to 'create' things for manufacturers (product designs, sound design, samples) and those creations are and become the property (physical and intellectual) of my client and are not mine to exploit in hindsight if the product turns out to be a rip roaring success. It's just understood with or without a written contract.

I did some sounds for Roland's V-Synth - they belong to Roland, not to me. I was paid to do the job, the client was happy, end of story. I did work on Bela-D Media's wonderful 'Giovanni' - same ... those samples aren't mine to exploit.

Similarly, if I pay someone to create 'works' for me, THEY are not entitled to exploit them themselves.

It's understood and I'd be very annoyed if I had used/paid Mr Ainsworth to create something for me and he then chose to sell them himself as well especially if he was cashing in on my 'brand'.

Cheers,



Stephen

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