KVR Audio

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:54 am

Ghost Dog wrote:Probably not the most practical time to ask, but, can someone give me a TLDR version of whether the Wavetable Editor in the demo version of Serum can be used for creating wavetables for personal, non-commercial use.

The demo version is fully functional but limited to 15 minutes. So good luck creating anything useful in that amount of time.

fab_thefab · Post by **fab_thefab** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:11 am

I am personally very happy with the way i've been treated by Tone2 and especially Troel who is one very sweet guy.

I bought last year in march their full bundle with every synth , fx and soundset.
Not only did i get updates on my synths for free but i also got one year extra of free soundsets. And when it ended just before the latest release for icarus, he also gave it to me for free...

And for my kind of music, trance, industrial and futurepop, their synths are second to none but u-he ones. Bullseye !
I understand that everyone is entitled to his opinion and this is mine.

I don't care that Markus is way beyond line by oversecuring his tools. Said who? R2R? The very same guys that hack almost every piece of software on the market? And kill small devs in the process? Seriously? Are they a beacon of integrity?

Not that i'm ungrateful to R2R and others for allowing me try out all these different synths. I'm NOT.

But in the end, after 20 years of using them for free (yes i was an addict) , i bought every piece of software (synths, fx and even soundsets) i use beginning with Cubase.

Curiously, i make way more tracks now than ever before when i was swimming in warez, sorting, collecting and forgetting about them on my NASes (plural). That's my experience. You are allowed to beg to differ.

kiezum · Post by **kiezum** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:09 pm

Markus Krause wrote: Q: I am Urs Heckmann. I want to use Tone2 Gladiator and Icarus to generate wavetables for my upcoming wavetable synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: Yes. We need to protect our intellectual efforts, wavetables and samples from being used in other competitors synths or products.
Many of our wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material. Icarus and Gladiator can generate new wavetables with a single mouse-button-click. Clicking on a button itself is not a 'creative process'. Beside of that many algorithms for generating and modifying waveforms use coprighted material as source data.

Interesting discussion. If I can't sell samples I made with Tone2 then I don't want to risk using Tone2 synths. Too bad.

More interesting... Is Urs working on a new wavetable synth? Wow, that will be an instant buy. I hope it will import Serum wavetables.

BTW Wavetables made with Serum are not copyrighted.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:20 pm

kiezum wrote:
Markus Krause wrote: Q: I am Urs Heckmann. I want to use Tone2 Gladiator and Icarus to generate wavetables for my upcoming wavetable synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: Yes. We need to protect our intellectual efforts, wavetables and samples from being used in other competitors synths or products.
Many of our wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material. Icarus and Gladiator can generate new wavetables with a single mouse-button-click. Clicking on a button itself is not a 'creative process'. Beside of that many algorithms for generating and modifying waveforms use coprighted material as source data.
Interesting discussion. If I can't sell samples I made with Tone2 then I don't want to risk using Tone2 synths. Too bad.

I don't think that's really the meaning of what he wrote. I can't see how you are not supposed to sell samples made with Tone2 synths. Every sample pack contains samples made with other instruments. I think the point here is that wavetables made in another synths, which are used to include them in another commercial synth poses a problem. I don't have any horse in this race, just saying how i understand it.

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:31 pm

chk071 wrote:
kiezum wrote:
Markus Krause wrote: Q: I am Urs Heckmann. I want to use Tone2 Gladiator and Icarus to generate wavetables for my upcoming wavetable synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: Yes. We need to protect our intellectual efforts, wavetables and samples from being used in other competitors synths or products.
Many of our wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material. Icarus and Gladiator can generate new wavetables with a single mouse-button-click. Clicking on a button itself is not a 'creative process'. Beside of that many algorithms for generating and modifying waveforms use coprighted material as source data.
Interesting discussion. If I can't sell samples I made with Tone2 then I don't want to risk using Tone2 synths. Too bad.
I don't think that's really the meaning of what he wrote. I can't see how you are not supposed to sell samples made with Tone2 synths. Every sample pack contains samples made with other instruments. I think the point here is that wavetables made in another synths, which are used to include them in another commercial synth poses a problem. I don't have any horse in this race, just saying how i understand it.

Sadly I don't think your interpretation is right as I understand it.
rsp

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:34 pm

There is absolutely no way i can imagine you can forbid soft synths for the use of the creation of samples. Every sample pack would be illegal then.

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:39 pm

Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

What I do know (or think I know)
is sound recordings are copyrighted.
subtractive synths output afaik isn't.

So you can sample a moog and sell it, but you can't sample any omnisphere patch that uses samples....
If I record audio myself and own the copyright I can sell it.
I can sell it as a Kontakt instrument, as an Omnisphere instrument etc.

If I edit those samples in wavelab or IZ Denoiser etc I can sell them as kontakt and omnisphere instruments.

What I understand is that if you perchance edit them in tone2 editors in one of their synths, you can't sell them for use in non tone2 synths.
That's how I understand it.

Although I am not sure, I suspect wavetables being derived from samples as they were follow the same as above, that is if they were derived from copyrighted audio, you can't, but if you own the copyright of the original wave files you can... except if you use tone2 stuff to create/edit those wavetables.
rsp

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:46 pm

I'm sure you right, i just don't get how you are supposed to - even identify a sample, or a wavetable in another sample, if it has been mangled to total unrecognizability; or, create a wavetable for your synth without a proper tool for wavetable creation (how were the waves in the former Tone2 synths created, for example? Markus surely used another synth, or tool to create those, unless he already developed a sample or wavetable creating tool at that time). And, there's so many sample packs out there which were created with the Virus synth, for example, which has wavetable and granular synthesis onboard, and i really can't imagine you are not supposed to use that to create samples. Maybe it's a decision which would have to be made in a per-case way, and, if the sample resembles the sample, or wavetable in the sampled synth too much, it would be a copyright infringement. I have no idea TBH, and, i really have no idea how you'd want to judge that.

In any case, there should be a diplomatic way to sort this all out. Don't think anyone really benefits from smoking guns. And, i'm already deeper into this thing than i really wanted to be.

Frantz · Post by **Frantz** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:53 pm

To avoid running afoul of the Tone2 EULA, please consult your lawyer before clicking any button on a Tone2 synth. It may be more cost effective to have your lawyer join the band.

Markus Krause · Post by **Markus Krause** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:15 pm

Please stop distributing missinformtion.

You are allowed to use our editors without asking us to create content for Tone2 synths. You do not have to ask for a permission.

If you want to use our tools or wavetables to create content for non-Tone2 synths contact us. Tell us for what purpose you want to use. You'll usually get our permission. It is as simple as that.

Q: how were the waves in the former Tone2 synths created, for example? Markus surely used another synth, or tool to create those, unless he already developed a sample or wavetable creating tool at that time).
A: I programmed them as formulas in C++. I also deveoped an own tool for this. You can download it here for free:
https://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=197.0

Markus Krause · Post by **Markus Krause** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:19 pm

Q: Why do i have to get a permission if i want to use wavetables or waveforms from a Tone2 synth as content for a non-Tone2 synth?

A: Most wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material. They are copyrighted by Tone2. We also licensed waveforms from other companies.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:39 pm

That's a word.

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:49 pm

Markus Krause wrote:Q: Why do i have to get a permission if i want to use wavetables or waveforms from a Tone2 synth as content for a non-Tone2 synth?

A: Most wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material. They are copyrighted by Tone2. We also licensed waveforms from other companies.

Markus I don't think this part was unclear or ever in doubt, it was the importing of your own waveforms/wavetables into tone2 for editing/manipulating for use in non tone2 problems was the 'concern'

But you answered that here :

"If you want to use our tools or wavetables to create content for non-Tone2 synths contact us. Tell us for what purpose you want to use. You'll usually get our permission. It is as simple as that. " (my emphasis)

which is a bit unusual.
Are they any other developers you are aware who does this too?
I think it is your tools and you can of course determine your EULA....but it is a bit unusual...no?

Anyway I don't imagine you want to discuss it here, maybe I should email you OR just let you enjoy your weekend

rsp

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:57 pm

Markus Krause wrote: Q: how were the waves in the former Tone2 synths created, for example? Markus surely used another synth, or tool to create those, unless he already developed a sample or wavetable creating tool at that time).
A: I programmed them as formulas in C++. I also developed an own tool for this. You can download it here for free:
https://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=197.0

There isn't a link in that thread. As a registered Gladiator user, I am very interested in having that tool, even if it isn't "perfect". I don't want to register in the forum though (too many forums, and I usually am not interested in proprietary forums, anyway). Can you send me a download link by PM, please?

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:02 pm

http://www.tone2.com/Resynthesis_Tool_f ... iator2.zip

Markus's link has a link to another thread:
http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=196

which has the link I posted above.

that doesn't work?
rsp

Tone2 Gladiator 3 (public beta)