Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

[EvilDragon]

You have disabled the envelope. Right-click any of DAHDSR sliders, has an option to turn the envelope back on.

[EvilDragon]

As for the envelope, I found out that in Vital the Attack is not finishing at 0. You can turn the attack knob even lower than that. It still says 0 after lowering it down, but this little adjustment brings additional "click" to the attack making it very snappy. Would be nice to have something similar in Surge main AMP envelope.
Also, the main AMP envelope attack in Surge is actually less snapier than in msegs. Which is strange.

We've already had enough people telling us that Surge clicks too much. We won't add that feature.

Main amp/filter envelopes are quite different code from MSEGs, they're not supposed to work exactly the same.

[Mutant]

Never got anything warm out of this synt.

Oscillator Drift.
Filter Feedback.
Waveshaper/Saturator/Soft
Various built in effects that can make this VSTi sound literally more "analog" than most modern analog hardware.

[Igro]

As for the envelope, I found out that in Vital the Attack is not finishing at 0. You can turn the attack knob even lower than that. It still says 0 after lowering it down, but this little adjustment brings additional "click" to the attack making it very snappy. Would be nice to have something similar in Surge main AMP envelope.
Also, the main AMP envelope attack in Surge is actually less snapier than in msegs. Which is strange.

We've already had enough people telling us that Surge clicks too much. We won't add that feature.

Main amp/filter envelopes are quite different code from MSEGs, they're not supposed to work exactly the same.

Hmm, that's interesting. I'm not a fun of too "in your face" clicks (hello Pigments! This one cannot even filter out those clicks with its own filters, lol), but the Surge is too far away from it.

[EvilDragon]

Well, this is why there are different synths for different things. Surge is not and will not be a do-it-all synth (even if it already does a lot).

[Andreya_Autumn]

As for the envelope, I found out that in Vital the Attack is not finishing at 0. You can turn the attack knob even lower than that. It still says 0 after lowering it down, but this little adjustment brings additional "click" to the attack making it very snappy. Would be nice to have something similar in Surge main AMP envelope.
Also, the main AMP envelope attack in Surge is actually less snapier than in msegs. Which is strange.

We've already had enough people telling us that Surge clicks too much. We won't add that feature.

Main amp/filter envelopes are quite different code from MSEGs, they're not supposed to work exactly the same.

Hmm, that's interesting. I'm not a fun of too "in your face" clicks (hello Pigments! This one cannot even filter out those clicks with its own filters, lol), but the Surge is too far away from it.

Did you try the MSEG -> extended range pitch? I ask because in my perception Surge should be capable of producing very snappy kick attacks. I don't have much experience with Vital though, so maybe there is in fact something there that we don't have.

[Igro]

As for the envelope, I found out that in Vital the Attack is not finishing at 0. You can turn the attack knob even lower than that. It still says 0 after lowering it down, but this little adjustment brings additional "click" to the attack making it very snappy. Would be nice to have something similar in Surge main AMP envelope.
Also, the main AMP envelope attack in Surge is actually less snapier than in msegs. Which is strange.

We've already had enough people telling us that Surge clicks too much. We won't add that feature.

Main amp/filter envelopes are quite different code from MSEGs, they're not supposed to work exactly the same.

Hmm, that's interesting. I'm not a fun of too "in your face" clicks (hello Pigments! This one cannot even filter out those clicks with its own filters, lol), but the Surge is too far away from it.

Did you try the MSEG -> extended range pitch? I ask because in my perception Surge should be capable of producing very snappy kick attacks. I don't have much experience with Vital though, so maybe there is in fact something there that we don't have.

Yes, I've tried that. It won't make it snapier. In Vital, Serum and Pigments kicks can sound as snapy as in a dedicated kick synth, such as Kick 2. But I understand, not all synths (in fact, only minority) are capable of producing something like this.

[EvilDragon]

As an aside...


Huge thanks to EVERYONE who has voted for Surge XT in KvR's 2022 poll! We have reclaimed our crown from last year's winner, Vital (which entirely deserved it for 2021 - of course)!


It is so comforting that people are constantly recognizing the efforts from everyone at Surge Synth Team - it absolutely gives meaning to everything we did, we do, and plan to do in the future. Onwards and upwards!

[Halonmusic]

[audiojunkie]

As an aside...


Huge thanks to EVERYONE who has voted for Surge XT in KvR's 2022 poll! We have reclaimed our crown from last year's winner, Vital (which entirely deserved it for 2021 - of course)!


It is so comforting that people are constantly recognizing the efforts from everyone at Surge Synth Team - it absolutely gives meaning to everything we did, we do, and plan to do in the future. Onwards and upwards!

I, of course, voted for Surge-XT.

[Andreya_Autumn]

Yes, I've tried that. It won't make it snapier. In Vital, Serum and Pigments kicks can sound as snapy as in a dedicated kick synth, such as Kick 2. But I understand, not all synths (in fact, only minority) are capable of producing something like this.

Oh ok! I'm fairly new to drum sound design, so I don't doubt this could be true. If you happen to have any sound examples of this difference I'd love to hear them! I'm curious to understand what the difference might be.

[Andreya_Autumn]

And I wholeheartedly second ED's sentiment. While my part is very small, I still feel honored to be a part of something that's appreciated by so many. It means a lot. <3

[Igro]

Yes, I've tried that. It won't make it snapier. In Vital, Serum and Pigments kicks can sound as snapy as in a dedicated kick synth, such as Kick 2. But I understand, not all synths (in fact, only minority) are capable of producing something like this.

Oh ok! I'm fairly new to drum sound design, so I don't doubt this could be true. If you happen to have any sound examples of this difference I'd love to hear them! I'm curious to understand what the difference might be.

Audio example is on page 194.

Again, this is not essential for a synth to be that clean and precise. In the end, there are dedicated kick synths just for that. I just like to do everything in one synth (and Surge would be the best candidate for that. Where else you can find so many waveshapers?) I mean, making kicks, for instance, in Vital is way more advanced and versatile than in Kick 2 by Sonic Academy or alike.

It is quite possible, that the missing of oscillator phase adjustment is the cause for that. But even NI Massive X without phase adjustments sounds very snappy. So it is definitely Surge XT main AMP envelope is the cause of this.

Anyway, regardless that, Surge is just one of the most advanced synths due to its waveshaping capabilities. And it is very easy to use. Great for film and game scoring.

[Igro]

Just for the test I downloaded an NI Massive X demo. Here is another example of how slow is Surge XT attack. There is no pitch modulation. Just the AMP envelope. Massive/Vital/Surge (in this order):

http://www.sndup.net/k9dy

There is definitely a room for improvements.
Not sure about the EvilDragon statement about very "clicky" Surge envelope. It won't do a job for some in "in your face" bases without further processing.

[EvilDragon]

Modulation in Surge is executed in buffers of 32 samples and linearly interpolated within that. That may be the cause here. This is also one of the reasons that make Surge quite CPU efficient despite huge amounts of modulation. Other synths you have listed may instead be doing per sample modulation, which would absolutely explain the difference. The envelopes themselves are quite bog-standard/nothing special about them. It's just exponential curves, really.

Our new VCV rack modules (in beta currently) process modulation in 8 sample blocks, so you might wanna try them and see if they behave closer to what you would expect. We're probably going to reduce the modulation processing block size for Surge XT 2.0 - to 16 or 8, time will tell.