@hollowsun:
With all due respect to your work, you are missing one crucial point: the value of a product does not derive from how much work you put into it - it is a matter of how much the customer is willing to pay. In the end, it comes to what alternatives your customer has and what does he need or want.
I'm sure you spend a lot of time on your samples libraries, but I will buy your product only if it gives ME a sufficient value compared to what I can find on the market. This includes freebies.
The practice of flogging users for not paying enough is missing the point totally: you, as a developer, needs to cater to the needs of your customers - not vice versa.
Know that I hold great respect to you and any independent developer or designer trying to make a living. I also think that giving samples away with such generosity as you have is commendable. I can also understand your frustration. It is the whole "dev vs. the leech potential customers" approach I have issues with.
Does the samples business is going well?
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Steve,
Seriously, I mean no offence to Ian or any of the other dev's Iv commented on. Im talking purely about products here. Im sure Ian is a great guy and a virtuoso in his field. But again, I must reiterate that his sample libraries (the ones Iv heard) did not live up to his rep imo. Tired old techniques, uninspiring sounds, NOTHING to shout about.
Shame, because I was hoping these were going to be up their with the Spectrasonics libraries.
"the bottom line is that (for some reason) people aren't prepared to put their hands in their pocket for sounds"
Id bet there are many reasons for this. But one has to be the fact that sample libraries are on the most part disappointing. You read the review of a library, get drawn in by all the spiel, listen to the demos... then finally purchase the disc to realise its complete shank. This has happened to me so many times I cant say! If consumers are getting burned left, right and centre, then it is no surprise that they are turning to freeware.
Imo, developers need to up the stakes and put significantly more time and effort into their products. By this, I mean the industry in general, not anyone inparticular. There are devs who are clearly prepared to commit enough of themselves to ensure the right quality, but these are the few not the many.
I think it is also important for people to realise that not EVERYONE can make phenomenal sounds. Being about to make cool music does not mean you can be a great sound designer. Others seem to get the impression that producing sounds is an 'easy buck' - clearly another delussion. As I said eariler, if you can produce truely amazing sounds that inspire the user, then you have no business in the sample industry.
And in turn, if every new library lived up to its hype and really delivered, Im sure people would start putting their hands back in their pockets.
Seriously, I mean no offence to Ian or any of the other dev's Iv commented on. Im talking purely about products here. Im sure Ian is a great guy and a virtuoso in his field. But again, I must reiterate that his sample libraries (the ones Iv heard) did not live up to his rep imo. Tired old techniques, uninspiring sounds, NOTHING to shout about.
Shame, because I was hoping these were going to be up their with the Spectrasonics libraries.
"the bottom line is that (for some reason) people aren't prepared to put their hands in their pocket for sounds"
Id bet there are many reasons for this. But one has to be the fact that sample libraries are on the most part disappointing. You read the review of a library, get drawn in by all the spiel, listen to the demos... then finally purchase the disc to realise its complete shank. This has happened to me so many times I cant say! If consumers are getting burned left, right and centre, then it is no surprise that they are turning to freeware.
Imo, developers need to up the stakes and put significantly more time and effort into their products. By this, I mean the industry in general, not anyone inparticular. There are devs who are clearly prepared to commit enough of themselves to ensure the right quality, but these are the few not the many.
I think it is also important for people to realise that not EVERYONE can make phenomenal sounds. Being about to make cool music does not mean you can be a great sound designer. Others seem to get the impression that producing sounds is an 'easy buck' - clearly another delussion. As I said eariler, if you can produce truely amazing sounds that inspire the user, then you have no business in the sample industry.
And in turn, if every new library lived up to its hype and really delivered, Im sure people would start putting their hands back in their pockets.
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- KVRAF
- 3944 posts since 7 May, 2004 from behind his workbench
huh?tee boy wrote:(...)As I said eariler, if you can produce truely amazing sounds that inspire the user, then you have no business in the sample industry.
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- KVRAF
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
He means that you should just make your music insteadsonicfire wrote:huh?tee boy wrote:(...)As I said eariler, if you can produce truely amazing sounds that inspire the user, then you have no business in the sample industry.
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- KVRAF
- 4229 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Right here, in front of my computer...
I agree with Steve - people expect so much for so little these days.
I mean, in the mid 80's you'd pay £40 for a bank of patches for your £1500 synth. Nowadays not only do we expect loads of banks of patches for free but also the synth as well!
In the early 90's an average Akai format sample CD went for £200+. Nowadays the competition is things like Stylus RMX - 9 gigs of expert material crafted by the worlds best *and* an incredible multitimbral virtual drum synth/player *with* a huge collection of FX units *and* a ton of video training material that other companies charge serious money for (just check out video training material for things like Photoshop, Final Cut etc).
All that for £140.
Plus a lot of content is either not very well made, or you only find a small percentage useable to you. I can imagine spending £200 on an Akai format sample CD and finding three or four usable sounds I like out of the lot. Not exactly value for money. And you can't take them back either.
Everyone with a computer thinks they can be a sound developer because it's now easy and cheap to sample and mangle a ton of stuff. But like music itself, yes it's easy to do it, but still very difficult and time/skill intensive to do it *well*.
We live in strange times. There's never been better or cheaper technology - and yet it won't ever be cheap enough for some people while developers *charge money* for their time, dedication, skills and effort.
I mean, in the mid 80's you'd pay £40 for a bank of patches for your £1500 synth. Nowadays not only do we expect loads of banks of patches for free but also the synth as well!
In the early 90's an average Akai format sample CD went for £200+. Nowadays the competition is things like Stylus RMX - 9 gigs of expert material crafted by the worlds best *and* an incredible multitimbral virtual drum synth/player *with* a huge collection of FX units *and* a ton of video training material that other companies charge serious money for (just check out video training material for things like Photoshop, Final Cut etc).
All that for £140.
Plus a lot of content is either not very well made, or you only find a small percentage useable to you. I can imagine spending £200 on an Akai format sample CD and finding three or four usable sounds I like out of the lot. Not exactly value for money. And you can't take them back either.
Everyone with a computer thinks they can be a sound developer because it's now easy and cheap to sample and mangle a ton of stuff. But like music itself, yes it's easy to do it, but still very difficult and time/skill intensive to do it *well*.
We live in strange times. There's never been better or cheaper technology - and yet it won't ever be cheap enough for some people while developers *charge money* for their time, dedication, skills and effort.
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- KVRAF
- 1811 posts since 18 Jan, 2005 from Lost in the blinding whiteness of the tundra
I've not used any of the specific products discussed in this thread so I'm not commenting on them, but surely the point is that something isn't cheap enough if there's a better option costing less money?beej wrote: We live in strange times. There's never been better or cheaper technology - and yet it won't ever be cheap enough for some people while developers *charge money* for their time, dedication, skills and effort.
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- KVRAF
- 4229 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Right here, in front of my computer...
Sure. But the top quality stuff isn't free and there aren't free alternatives that come anywhere close.
The average quality stuff is different - as I said, quality is variable and you *can* find free stuff that has had more care and skill used in its making than *some* of the commercial stuff.
The commercial side is definitely suffering but the good companies are still making first class products that *are* selling - Spectrasoncs, Illio, Vienna seem to be finding a way to survive and even thrive...
The key is to strive to be great, and not average I guess...
The average quality stuff is different - as I said, quality is variable and you *can* find free stuff that has had more care and skill used in its making than *some* of the commercial stuff.
The commercial side is definitely suffering but the good companies are still making first class products that *are* selling - Spectrasoncs, Illio, Vienna seem to be finding a way to survive and even thrive...
The key is to strive to be great, and not average I guess...
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- KVRAF
- 3139 posts since 6 Sep, 2002 from United Kingdom & Opinions Will Travel :O)
Cool!beej wrote:
The key is to strive to be great, and not average I guess...
that should make things interesting Best regards,
Spe3d
:O)
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Sorry, I meant CAN'T.sonicfire wrote:huh?tee boy wrote:(...)As I said eariler, if you can produce truely amazing sounds that inspire the user, then you have no business in the sample industry.
Now then, that statement should make a little more sense!
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Precisely, the rules of the market are paramount in any business. And today, the market doesnt value run of the mill 'bread n butter' sounds particularly well (mostly due to the freebies). Hence, the effort and cost of making samples may not compare favorably to the returns, and then I guess it is not a good market to enter (unless you have an innovative trick up your sleeve!). I guess this was what the VST ROMpler boom was all about - same sounds in a fancier box.spacefox wrote:@hollowsun:
I'm sure you spend a lot of time on your samples libraries, but I will buy your product only if it gives ME a sufficient value compared to what I can find on the market. This includes freebies.
Still, freebies dont cover everything. And this is why certain commerical libraries still sell like hot cakes (or atleast one could assume so if the use in media is anything to go on). There are many commerical libraries that I would not want to be without, and believe me, I am a tight bastard! If freeware covered these products, I would certainly go with them.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4314 posts since 31 Oct, 2004
This is exactly what I'm thinking, why accusing the customers from being cheap when what you offer is far from being needed.spacefox wrote:The practice of flogging users for not paying enough is missing the point totally: you, as a developer, needs to cater to the needs of your customers - not vice versa.
The bottom line is that there's too much offers for the demand. There's more than 50 companies dedicated to sound developement with hundreds of titles available today.
Somehow these companies have turn the sampling technologies into an commercial thing.
People want things to be simple: you buy a sampler then you use it with whatever you can take you hands on, this could an old electronic toy, a broken organ, anything you can record with a microphone & a portable minidisc recorder, the real fun of the sampling technologies is to explore , not limit yourself to what whatever companies are trying to sell you!
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Aha, but that brings us right back to the start again doesnt it! Most people dont have the time, money, skill or inclination to make great sounds and will therefore rely on others to provide them. Since the gulf between freeware and commerical shrank, so did the sales of professional products.
The developers need to claim back their portion of the market by re-establishing the divide. And this can only be done by uping the quality with innovative new products. And this is where the men get sorted from the boys I guess
Like has already been said, Spectrasonics and the like dont seem to be suffering greatly do they?
The developers need to claim back their portion of the market by re-establishing the divide. And this can only be done by uping the quality with innovative new products. And this is where the men get sorted from the boys I guess
Like has already been said, Spectrasonics and the like dont seem to be suffering greatly do they?-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4314 posts since 31 Oct, 2004
Well Tee Boy, I have to agree with you, I downloaded the demo mp3 from 'Breakz From the Nu Skool' & 'Twisted Textures' & they defenitly sounds better than most of the other sample libraries out there.tee boy wrote:Aha, but that brings us right back to the start again doesnt it! Most people dont have the time, money, skill or inclination to make great sounds and will therefore rely on others to provide them. Since the gulf between freeware and commerical shrank, so did the sales of professional products.
The developers need to claim back their portion of the market by re-establishing the divide. And this can only be done by uping the quality with innovative new products. And this is where the men get sorted from the boys I guess
Here's the links to others to listen:
Twisted Textures
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/det ... sku=EW-144
Breakz From the Nu Skool
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/det ... sku=EW-142
Listen to the comments BT is making...
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Lol, he sez some funny stuff I agree. But that just makes me like the libraries all the more - you get the bonus comedy value!
"Hi, Im TB, have a blast!"
"Hi, Im TB, have a blast!"
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- KVRAF
- 4822 posts since 14 Mar, 2002 from Somewhere else, on principle
You aren't Eric Persing... that's why.sonicfire wrote:i´m thinking about a price reduction, yes... butDorian Gray wrote:Sonicfire you sold 18 copies of Space Hawk because it is too expensive at the time of year you released it.
Plus well who are you ? I think price goes on reputation as well. Its why Distorted Reality2 was like $300.
Sell it on for $30, then I'll order, cos I bought DVDs from Doru for $30.
DG.
why should i self 3GB / 250 handcrafted loops for 30USD?