KVR Audio

t-willy · Post by **t-willy** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:18 pm

i took piano lessons for 3 or 4 years and played the trumpet for 3. that's really helped me develop my heavy metal skills today......

i'm pretty good at playing with myself too......i mean by myself.

lates

t-willy

VicDiesel · Post by **VicDiesel** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:18 pm

Kingston wrote:There is somewhat, in loosely classical (whatever that term means) based folk oriented music, and baroque "fugue battles" as pointed out by Hovmod. Musicians that play these are a very rare breed, unfortunately.

I've never seen a live improvisation of a fugue, but I used to play church organ and in those circles improvisation is entirely normal. There are even improvisation competitions on church organ.

A lack of improvisational skill is really characteristic of the "romantic" musicians. In modern music, there is lots of graphic notation and other forms of indeterminacy where you have to fill in the blanks. Further back in time, before 1600 or so music was written down very sketchily, and you had to supply quite a bit yourself. Ornamentation at the very least, and maybe some divisions. So, people playing "early" music these days also have improvisational skills.

I went to a master class the other day in recorder playing. The teacher encouraged each player to play a bit freestyle, together with the harpsichord, prior to playing the piece that they had prepared. That way you can get into the tonality and spirit of the piece. He said that he sometimes starts concerts by doing a warming up improvisation that gradually transitions into the first item on the program.

Victor.

Hovmod · Post by **Hovmod** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:25 pm

nuffink wrote:
herodotus wrote:Finally, @ Kingston: Being a concert 'classical' musician is really f**king hard. Very few people who try actually make the grade. The ones who do are pretty single minded. Saying that they lack something because they can't improvise is akin to saying that a jazz musician lacks something because he or she doesn't recognize the difference between a mordent and an appogiatura.
Nah. You can't compare the wonder that is improvisation with a little technical detail like that.

"The wonder that is improvisation" is a learned skill. Some musicians choose to learn other skills. As much as I hate to quote the unimaginably silly movie "crossroads", this statement does have some truth in it: You cannot serve two masters.

deaf dunderkwac · Post by **deaf dunderkwac** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:27 pm

studied jazz percussion, formal training stopped at about 17 (9-10 years) thereabouts.
I discontinued studying music in my 20's.
I have known many classical, jazz and 'other' musicians and I appreciate their *very* different skills.
I consider myself to be at best a hack and in the past have sat in with all types of music makers (except classical musicians, cause they don't jam well with others

)

strav100 · Post by **strav100** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:30 pm

Grade 8 Clarinet (distinction), Grade 5 Piano, Grade 8 Theory, A Level Music with 'A', equiv Grade 7 on Bassoon (I took no grades - my bassoon teacher (ex-principal of CBSO) said there was no point as I had already donr Grade 8 on clarinet). Then I did a degree in something completely different and haven't played the instruments since (now i'm 33). OK - it all seems a bit of a waste - but I have read loads of books on music theory harmony, counterpoint since then and I want to get serious about composition but first I really have to train my inner ear which I am doing vigurously now - so I can write as much down on paper without pissing about on the piano. Then I go to Sibelius and use all the vst's i've got and do a mock-up ( I am interested in the integration of orch. instruments and electronic stuff). Only written bits, lots of bits - nothing complete yet. I'd rather write 2 good works in my lifetime then 50 works of shite

strav100 · Post by **strav100** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:32 pm

And I'm not in it for the money - I have a good career and a very well paid job - I do what the hell I like without having to please anyone (that's why I didn't do a music degree

)

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:35 pm

could someone explain a bit about the grade 8, grade 3, whatever
is that some international grading scheme based on ???
or indigineous to the UK and such

apparently there are exams involved
written and/or performance ???

excuse my cultural ignorance

i am a great believer in musical training. having had very little myself and inclined at that time to avoid and shortcut what I did get as much as possible, I now am steeping myself in theory and practice if only for my own amusement. I do find i learn best within a certain freamework of structured theory and application and it's not that easy to find materials that strike the balance I'm looking for. It's very likely my performance skills will never be all that great given the lateness of this effort, but I am enjoying seeing the little progress I'm making.

herodotus · Post by **herodotus** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:40 pm

Kingston wrote:
herodotus wrote:Finally, @ Kingston: Being a concert 'classical' musician is really f**king hard. Very few people who try actually make the grade. The ones who do are pretty single minded. Saying that they lack something because they can't improvise is akin to saying that a jazz musician lacks something because he or she doesn't recognize the difference between a mordent and an appogiatura.
Oh I don't know. There's such a powerful musical education system in place here in finland we have an abundance of orchestras and the excellent musicians. I suppose the reputation of the quality finnish classical music is well deserved.

Oh, I am sure. Long live Sibelius! But I severly doubt that everyone who has ever auditioned for, say, the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra was accepted. There are always more hopefuls than there are positions for them.

nuffink wrote:
Nah. You can't compare the wonder that is improvisation with a little technical detail like that.

Well if I wanted to be a snot I could say that you can't compare the wonder that is Bach's 'Goldberg Variations' with something as ephemeral as a jazz improv.

Fortunately, I am not that kind of snot.

My point was simply that there are many kinds of musical skill, and that it rarely makes sense to denigrate one kind because it lacks qualities found in another.

VicDiesel · Post by **VicDiesel** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:46 pm

Hovmod wrote:"The wonder that is improvisation" is a learned skill.

And a lot of people who improvise are boring improvisers.

As much as I hate to quote the unimaginably silly movie "crossroads",

Heh. Just saw that one the other day. The guitar duel with Steve Vai is somewhat entertaining.

Victor.

PS me: good number of music lessons, but at least as much self-taught, and have taken no examinations so all this talk of grades is alien to me. Know theory out the wazzoo, and have played in classical concerts before a paying audience.

shamann · Post by **shamann** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:13 pm

wrench45us wrote:or indigineous to the UK and such

Not UK only. They have it here in Canada, Kingston is in Finland, Woj is in the UK, jackson is in the US. Probably started in the UK, though. I think it's administerd here in Canada by the Royal Conservatory of Music.

I believe this is its foundation:

http://www.abrsm.org

Kingston · Post by **Kingston** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:23 pm

The system here isn't actually anything like the grade system. I've just lived and studied in the UK long enough to know the equivalents around here.

for both, classical, and pop/jazz and any instrument and theory, we have 1/3, 2/3, 3/3 qualifications for basics. Then there's a "big" 1 which is roughly the equivalent of grade 8. then there's "big" 2a and 2b. 2b is generally of the skill level that you're already a known and excellent performer.

Whoever thought of that numbering system was smoking something and I want some, too.

foosnark · Post by **foosnark** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:26 pm

wrench45us wrote:could someone explain a bit about the grade 8, grade 3, whatever
is that some international grading scheme based on ???
or indigineous to the UK and such

apparently there are exams involved
written and/or performance ???

excuse my cultural ignorance

I never heard of any of that either. ::shrug::

I played violin in middle/high school, was in the Florida West Coast Youth Symphony for a while (which also involved some music theory and conducting classes). Also played keys in the high school jazz band; we were awful but the class was educational. The orchestra conductor claimed it ruined me as a classical musician because I didn't play without swing anymore.

In the midst of that, I took both violin and piano lessons. My violin teacher was actually my elementary school music teacher, who is one of my personal heroes; I credit her with my interest in music in the first place. At her recommendation, I took piano lessons from a friend of hers... in Suzuki method. There I was graduating from high school and playing the same stuff as 8-year-olds

I didn't stick with that for long, and I would still say my keyboard playing is rudimentary at best.

For lack of practice I can barely read standard music notation anymore, and I haven't picked up a violin in years. That makes me a little sad... but OTOH I'm making music I can be proud of and enjoy listening to, which is something I could rarely say about my performances

jackson · Post by **jackson** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:37 pm

I thought the system was devised in Italy, but I could be wrong... I can't remember them well enough to think of a "royal association" in the title though. I studied in New Zealand.

It's certainly considered the "international" grading system, and just like international sports, culture, and well anything from outside the US, nobody's ever heard of it here.

deaf dunderkwac · Post by **deaf dunderkwac** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:47 pm

jackson wrote:I thought the system was devised in Italy, but I could be wrong... I can't remember them well enough to think of a "royal association" in the title though. I studied in New Zealand.

It's certainly considered the "international" grading system, and just like international sports, culture, and well anything from outside the US, nobody's ever heard of it here.

too many years ago to remember, but I'm thinking I agree with you.
@jackson- did my training at the SF jazz conservatory... curious if it still exists?

JonasNorberg · Post by **JonasNorberg** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:49 pm

the "crossroads" duel rules... just skip to 7:25 where karatekid does his awesome arpeggios... yummy...

enjoy...

Who here has any 'formal' music qualifications?