Help me select a piano action keyboard midi controller

[XDVarenkor]

Response curves ARE scaling!

As I understand it, the response curve describes the output response per key at different velocities (eg linear, negative curve heavy action, positive curve light action) - while scaling (or grading more usually) describes a graduation of key response across the range of the keyboard, to simulate a real piano action (heavy at the bottom, light at the top).

[AdmiralQuality]

Response curves ARE scaling!

As I understand it, the response curve describes the output response per key at different velocities (eg linear, negative curve heavy action, positive curve light action) - while scaling (or grading more usually) describes a graduation of key response across the range of the keyboard, to simulate a real piano action (heavy at the bottom, light at the top).

Oh. OK. If you like. Though I consider it the sound generator's job to keyboard scaling.

[Kalamata Kid]

The help has been phenomenal. I really appreciate all the help from everyone.

I reviewed all the messages and I will do an about face. I will go back to the P70 or a similar keyboard and add the control surface like the Behringer BCF-2000
http://www.behringer.com/BCF2000/index.cfm?lang=ENG as needed.

This two part solution is better than the any one of the three full featured keyboards I had previously favored:
UF Omnipotent Master Keyboard
http://cme-pro.com/products-list/product-uf.html
StudioLogic VMK188
http://studiologic.net/vmk-188.html
ProKeys 88
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/P ... -main.html

Please comment and advise.

[Kalamata Kid]

Since we are on the subject of velocity scaling which is best done on the keyboard as it is done I assume at the analogue level than converted to digital this gives the best results.

My question is for my current system which does not have velocity scaling. I use Cubase and EnergyXT. What MFX or VST-Midi-FX's are available that will do midi velocity scaling, perhaps capable with tweaking options? Are there some that anyone can recommend?

[AdmiralQuality]

Well, it's always digital. Velocity sensitivity works by timing the time it takes for the key to cross from one contact, to another, and all the keys are scanned successively, one at a time (well, sometimes several at a time) over and over again, REALLY fast.

But a MIDI velocity message only has 127 possible velocities (velocity 0 is same as note off), it's certainly possible for a modern device's keyboard scanner to produce more timings than that. So if you do the scaling in the instrument, you can still get 127 discreet velocities out. If you do it after however, in your host, you take the 127 posssible values and apply some curve to them... but that rescaling inherently leaves holes in the gamut of new values.

Still, 127 velocities is a LOT. Very few players would have velocity control sensitive enough to notice if half or even 2/3 of them were thrown away. So really it's not a huge issue, velocity scaling/curving in your host will usually do fine, but technically it's better in the keyboard (though you're not guaranteed the keyboard is doing a better job. It just COULD, if it's scanning is fast enough.)

[Kalamata Kid]

AdmiralQuality,

Thanks for the explanation. I need help my current keyboard which has no velocity scaling. I use Cubase and EnergyXT. What MFX or VST-Midi-FX's are available that will do midi velocity scaling, perhaps a graph and capable of tweaking?

[AdmiralQuality]

AdmiralQuality,

Thanks for the explanation. I need help my current keyboard which has no velocity scaling. I use Cubase and EnergyXT. What MFX or VST-Midi-FX's are available that will do midi velocity scaling, perhaps a graph and capable of tweaking?

Many of the VST instruments themselves will provide scaling.

Cubase has it built in, but only linear scaling I think, no curves, which 99% of the time is actually what you want. AH! THere's a MIDI effect called Compress in SX3 that would be something like a curve. Also in Track FX. (Both found as inserts on the MIDI track.)

I'm sure just about any good MIDI processor out there should do velocity curve scaling. I'm going to have one myself someday too, but won't be able to get to it for at least a few months.

[XDVarenkor]

Well, it's always digital. Velocity sensitivity works by timing the time it takes for the key to cross from one contact, to another, and all the keys are scanned successively, one at a time (well, sometimes several at a time) over and over again, REALLY fast.

Different to hammer action though, which gives a more accurate representation of how hard the key was struck and not how fast. I keep both types of controller around for different purposes, but generally find the velocity-sensitive keyboard too inconsistent in generating MIDI velocity data that is anything like my playing (piano background y'see - technique is often fast but light).

[pethu]

What MFX or VST-Midi-FX's are available that will do midi velocity scaling, perhaps a graph and capable of tweaking?

Search the Raw Materials forum -- a friendly soul helped us out by making just such a plug (VST MIDI) a month or so ago. Preset curves, draw-your-own... all you need. Perfect for taming the less-than-perfect response curve of my keystation 49s in some situations...


EDIT: And now I'm over the momentary laziness... here's the direct link to platinumear's VelocityCurve

http://platinumears.com/VelocityCurve.rar

[Kalamata Kid]

Pethu,

I want to thank all that have helped me. You on the other hand made my day or should I say week, no, You made my month! Thank the designer for me. The Velocity curve is exactly what I need to tame my keyboard velocity default settings. How does one save a custom curve?

Admiral Quality, I tried your recommendation and had only limited success but now with the VelocityCurve all is OK.

XDVarenkor, Thanks for the explanation velocity VS how hard a key is pressed. Ultimately it all boils down to velocity but the body/mind perceives it as pressure and thus more control.

Pethu, The VelocityCurve I am sure will be a welcome VST midiFX for the Modular users. If the designer allows it please post in the EnergyXT forum in this thread
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &start=495

and also so the rest of the world knows post in http://www.midiplugins.com/
If you want I can to the leg work. just let me know.

Thanks again.

[Kalamata Kid]

I should add because of the VelocityCurve I will delay or even abandon buying a new keyboard. I mention this as After all the thread title was: Help me select a piano action keyboard midi controller

[AdmiralQuality]

That's awesome. A few lines of code saves you $1000!

[Kalamata Kid]

Admiral Quality, Some days things go your way. For me, such a day was well overdue.

[exnihilo]

Wow... I can not thank you all enough for the in-depth conversation on the whole weighted and semi-weighted and hammer - action thingys. I am now starting my search as well for a realistic piano controller as well. The conclusion that I have come to is that you should purchase a really nice hammer-action controller for your piano sounds (like the p70)... and then get a 61 or 49 key semi-weighted for the smaller synth/organ sounds. Then again, that would differ as to whether you are in a studio or playing live... This forum definately has saved some time... cheers!

[keyman_sam]

I have a Korg SG-1D. If you can find em, grab em is all i can say.