Question about scales

[tee boy]

Thanks jumpinjack!
So...how would I go about harmonizing the locrian mode? How do I find chords that work well in it?

This is actually really interesting, as I remember an old guitar teacher of mine once trying to come up with primary chords for each of the modes. The problem with Locrian is that the first chord has no perfect fifth, making it very unstable. You resolve away from it rather than to it!

So I guess you have to do whatever you can!

Iv only ever used Locrian when improvising in a jazz style. I use Locrian over diminished chords, but thats about it.

TB

[Toxikator]

You resolve away from it rather than to it!

Not at all. Once your ear has been "tuned", so to speak, to the modality of the song, it will find the resolution.

Consider the following: The resolution to the i in this piece (Locrian on D) is fairly steady:

Locrian Metal

[tee boy]

Ahhh, but unless my ears do decieve me, is he not slipping a perfect fifth into some of those 'i' powerchords? Im sure SOME of them have the perfect fifth.

I shall have a better listen when I get chance. Somehow I struggle to imagine how you can have a satisfying resolution to a diminished chord. But its an interesting idea! I've left the more dissonant modes pretty much alone, so it would be cool to find some sort of primary chord system that worked.

TB

[nuffink]

Dunno about that. As Gregjazz pointed out ii-7b5 - V7alt - i-6 is a fairly common jazz progression.

edit: oops, misprunt

[Toxikator]

I did indeed use powerchords, but as I've suggested before the powerchord (especially when that heavily distorted) is barely harmony and more just the timbre of the notes.

The point is that working with the bv-iv and the bii-i can make very powerful downward motions.

Here's the ending to that riff again, only with a clear emphasis on the importance of the resolution: Unresolved Locrian Metal

[MookTek]

Toxikator, the Locrius song you posted sounds more like bluesy Phrygian to me. Not that it makes much of a difference, but that's just the way I hear it.

[Toxikator]

Oh, well I never used the natural V (ever, even once) so I don't see how much more Locrian I can go...

[Gregjazz]

I did indeed use powerchords, but as I've suggested before the powerchord (especially when that heavily distorted) is barely harmony and more just the timbre of the notes.

Hmmm, that's an interesting point. I mean, the fifth is early on in the harmonic series, so you can usually hear it pretty prominently (play a C3 on the piano and you can hear a higher G ringing pretty noticeably).

[tee boy]

You're kind of moving into parallelism there if I understand you correctly.

And thats actually a cool thought and one I hadnt considered until just now. It is very common in parallelism to 'plane' the fifth (and its inversion, the fourth), or the fifth and octave.

I think I shall have to have a mess with that!

TB

[MadPsyance]

So,what kind of mode would have the notes, c, c#, e, f? I think a g# would fit in there well to.

[MookTek]

That's the Phrygian Dominant scale (5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale).
Here are the notes:
C Db E F G Ab Bb C
Here are the chords:
C Db Edim Fm Gdim Ab+ Bbm C

Great scale!

[Toxikator]

Indeed. If you ever get a chance to listen to "Slip out the Back" by Fort Minor you can hear it really prominently.

The other advantage to the scale is that its root is a Major chord... try playing Cmaj, DbMaj, EbMaj, DbMaj, CMaj (classic Spanish "conquistadore"ish progression)

[MadPsyance]

Mooktek, when you say, "5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale"...does that mean you start on the fifth degree of a harmonic minor scale, like how "normal" modes are relative to degrees on the major scale? If, so many things may have just clicked in my head. Also, how would "Phrygian Dominant scale" be notated?

[MoreDread]

You got it.

The sequence of steps comprising the Phrygian dominant scale is:
half - augmented - half - whole - half - whole - whole
For example, C Phrygian Dominant would be C C# E F G G# A# C


Edit: Mooktek already mentioned this, of course.

[tee boy]

That's the Phrygian Dominant scale (5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale).
Here are the notes:
C Db E F G Ab Bb C
Here are the chords:
C Db Edim Fm Gdim Ab+ Bbm C

Great scale!

The Satriani scale!

Fret boards at ten paces gentlemen

TB