BR: audio clips

[soma]

I don't think the normal mode is useless. Imagine a song with ambient noise without tempo or pitch relevance in the background . If you want to do a tempo change without affecting the ambient noise you need the normal mode, right?

If someone wants the sample to change size when the tempo changes just enable a flag for that. Give an option in the .ini for preferred default behavior.

Otherwise the length in time will stay the same and the length in beats will change.

Jorgen please read!

So basically we need two modes but in both modes you should be able to time stretch, re-pitch, and resize. Mode 1 locks length to time when tempo is changed and mode 2 locks length to beats when tempo is changed. I could see a third mode "repitch" if you wanted the length to lock to beats but want the sample to change pitch to match the length instead of time stretch.
I think this is what Jorgen must have had in mind be fore he got lost in all the work.

Now what happens when a clip is a sequence of samples (like a rearranged sliced break)? The samples should always be tied to the beat (ticks) they start on but you should be able to set, for each sample, weather you want it to stay the same length in seconds, same length in beats but change pitch to match, or stay the same length in beats but have it time stretch to match.
Just add the mode to the sequencer object bar too for setting teh same mode to all samples in a clip at once.

Tempo changes are more important to think about considering the live clip model and the .xtc frame work.

Feedback?

[paradiddle]

Please keep the repitch mode. The repitch mode works exactly like the one in Ableton live. It reminds me of how they use to speed up breakbeats to get'em to tempo without using any timestretching at all.

[soma]

This might be some help:
http://www.energy-xt.com/tutorials/audio/

I think the problem is Jorgen thought people would only create multi sample audio clips from a blank clip or gluing clips.
If you open a single sample and start draging stuff in there, that might be where teh trouble is. Will have to go test...

[soma]

Ok. I noticed that some issues don't happen if I make a blank audio clip and drag samples into it via the in-line editor.

I get the most trouble when I drag a sample to the track and open the editor and start adding samples there.

I am going to dedicate some hard core time to this issue (it's a PIA). I'm getting closer, I can feel it.

[soma]

inserpiz here thnks this is the porblem and I agree

The problem is that it doesn't actually change to a multi-sample clip when you drag a new sample to the popup editor of a single-sample clip.

edit;
Actually I think the problem is that dragging a sample to a track creates a different type of clip than if you drag a sample to an empty clip!

The whole mode architecture is nuts. You should be able to adjust pitch time and size independently on any sample.
Also, clips should have a stretch mode just like samples.
You should be able to stretch clips the way you can a single sample.
e.g

You have a 4 beat clip that starts on beat 0 has a "stretch" sample1 on beat 1, a "normal" sample2 on beat 2, and a "repitch" sample3 on beat 3.
If you stretch the clip to 8 beats you should get sample1 twice as long starting on beat 2, sample2 same length on beat 4, and sample3 with half the pitch on beat 6.

[insertpizhere]

right, dragging a sample to a track creates a "single-sample" clip. to change it to a multi-sample clip, you have to glue it (even if you're just gluing it to itself). otherwise it'll get all weird if you try to drag other samples to it. i'm not sure what the advantages are of the single-sample version... except that you can stretch/re-pitch the whole thing at once.

[bengeorge]

Ok, so think back to XT1.4.

Think of the way audio was done: Each sample had parameters like pan and volume and pitch coarse, pitch fine, and fade in fade out. But then, the lane that the sample sat in also had volume and pan, next to it's mute/solo buttons. (Going further, the sequencer track that the entire audio clip sat in also had pan and volume, but let's focus on the audio clip.)

This is how it should work: No different kinds of samples. Each sample has these parameters when you click on it:
Vol
Pan
FadeIn
FadeOut
Pitch: Coarse/Fine/Superfine (Can we get superfine please?)
Repitch: Coarse/Fine/Superfine
Stretch: CoarsePercent/FinePercent/SuperfinePercent.

Now, just like in XT1.4, each audio lane should also have these same parameters, that would be applied as offsets to the samples in that lane. If a sample had a Pitch of +3, and the lane had a pitch of +4, then the sample would play at +7 (the sample's pitch plus the offset.)


Also, position should be lockable as an absolute lock or as a relative-to-previous-sample lock.

Imagine one measure of 16th notes:

|A...|B...|C...|D...| (A-D are samples being placed on 1,2,3,4.)

Imagine that I set the audio lane's Stretch CoarsePercent to +100% (Double length) OR if I set the lane's Pitch Coarse to -12 (Double length and octave lower) OR if I set Stretch to 50% and Pitch to -6 (Double lenght and pitch six lower, y'all get the picture).

Now, with absolute lock, the measure would look like this:

|AA..|BB..|CC..|DD..|

Basically, AA is A, twice as long, but not being moved, BB still starts on beat 2. The increased length of AA doesn't push BB further along.

Here's what it would look like with relative positioning turned on:

AA..|.BB.|..CC|C...| (D would cut into the next measure)

And the D would wrap to the next bar. See? The distance between the samples remains constant.

Get it?

Soma, I know you get it, yeah?

[jens]

i'm not sure what the advantages are of the single-sample version... except that you can stretch/re-pitch the whole thing at once.

I think Jorgen included it for simplicity - depending on your way of working you sometimes just don't need multi-sample clips - e.g. think of the guy who who always records his guitars and/or his vocals in one take for the whole song... Klemperer comes to mind - not everyone is an edit-freak like me.

[soma]

bengeorge-
I get you,
Let's move the discussion over here,
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=182097

I got a bit off track from the bug in my ranting.

[Caleb]

===============================================
--- EDIT ---
Had an older version of the REX library. It is now updated and the files that weren't working before are working now
===============================================

I guess this is where I should post the REX2 issues then?

Quite a few people have mentioned it but it doesn't seem to be in one of the "official" threads. Maybe it's not a bug and I'm getting it wrong, but I cannot drag-n-drop REX2 files into the sequencer, except for the Angular Momentum free files.

I have the shared library in the XT2 folder and the Windows System32 folder, but no go - I just get a "Failed" message.

Is there a trick - or do we have a problem?

-- EDIT --
I did a bit of research on this as VSampler3 allows REX2 import. It too cannot handle some of these rex files - it states that the rex file is too new?

Does this mean anything to anybody?

Regards
Caleb

[Caleb]

OK - another problem with the audio clips and gluing.

I decided to get some of my wav loops and make XTC files for them so they'd be essentially REX2 (the XT2 way).

However, what I'm finding is that if I cut the audio parts at the beats and then glue together, I'm consistently losing the last "slice".

What might be explaning this is that the last part when splitting always reads a negative length in the object bar which may explain why it's vanishing when I go to glue it. You have to split into a few parts to see it.

-- EDIT --
In fact, there's something really flakey about how XT2 handles the length value after splitting audio parts. It's bloody awful in fact.

I just dumped a wave file in that says it's 3840 length on the object bar and I split it dead in the middle. The first part then says 3840 and the second part length says 0. Oooops.

No wonder it starts getting things wrong.

You glue two parts together where one is registering 0 length (or less) and you can imagine that the audio vanishes without a trace.

What a terrible bug.

-- EDIT AGAIN --

OK - got a little further. The problem is that XT2 is not understanding the length of the audio part in the first place. A length of 3840 is actually 1 bar, but the wave file in question is a 2 bar wave file.

The problem is - and I've now confirmed it with wave files of different lengths - XT2 actually thinks whatever wav file you drag into the audio track is only 1 bar in length regardless of how long it is. OUCH!

Regards
Caleb

[Caleb]

OK - another one.

If you split an audio part and glue it together so that you have multiple samples within the part and then you go to split at another point - everything to the right of the split becomes a blank audio part.

Ooops.

Regards
Caleb

[soma]

For me, I only have problems when the track is expanded. If it is expanded, and I split a clip the second clip is empty but the first one really plays the whole wav.

Also some times the length of a reverses ed sample is set to -1 (don't know when) If I try to change the length of a reversed sample from -1, it will change the volume until the sample reaches the end.

edit: happens when in Normal mode and more than one sample in a clip.

[Caleb]

Yeah - there's some serious issues with working with audio parts in general. Definitely need some looking into.

Regards
Caleb

[Caleb]

OK - I have found a workaround for the horrible "I don't know what length you are" bug for the dragged in wave files.

Currently, if you drag in a wave file of any length XT2 seems to think the length is 3840 - or 1 bar. This is a nightmare when you start trying to split up the audio part into multiple parts as you start getting parts of length -1000 for example - glueing parts like this loses the audio altogether.

However, I've found a workaround for the moment. If you swap the most for the new part from Normal to Stretch - or even Re-pitch, the length will refresh to the correct length.

Then when you swap back to Normal - it's back at the right length.
Then you can start splitting up the part "normally".

I would really like to see this bug fixed as it's a pretty awful bug, but at least now I've found a way around it. Hope this helps others as well.

Regards
Caleb