Integer is King? - final thoughts about the EQ challenge

[Kingston]

The Intel sounded different to the AMD??

He's a troll, got to be, nobody could be that dumb, could they?

no. he's some regular from KVR on a wind up spree. elaborate scheme starting to crack apparently.

some people have weird ideas about humour.

[nuffink]

How I got to the results?

Simple. I guessed and got lucky.

[Urs]

That's impressive, mauseoleum just made an invalid connection between TWO phenomenons he obviously knows bugger all about at an engineering level.

Whats that Jon? You have nowhere else to go?

This is a forum for developers. We listen to what our users say. Based on what some say, we shall start re-implementing all our code in Integer. This takes a year, which we will compensate for by doubeling the prices.

Seriously. Feedback based on belief isn't exactly what we're after.

I interpret Christian's test so that the whole "integer sounds better" argument is utter bullshit. If you think different, don't buy my stuff (actually, there's close to nothing you can buy then).

(and before I forget, try the impOscar. Sounds almost too good to be float, doesn't it?)

[thorkz]

Yeah impOscar is exelent. Outstanding I would say. Only I cant EQ my tracks with it.

[thorkz]

But.. "close to nothing"? Does that mean there is something in integer I could buy from you? What is it !!!!!!!!!!!

Please tell me. Thats the kind of information I'm hanging out here for.

thorKz

[Urs]

Yeah impOscar is exelent. Outstanding I would say. Only I cant EQ my tracks with it.

Jon coded that one.

[Urs]

What is it !!!!!!!!!!!

aciddose has some stuff I believe

[mauseoleum]

Nuffink, if you want to quote, quote "exact".

Otherwise, remove my name from the quote, because that isn't what I said.

For those interested:
what I did say is written on previous page.

[mauseoleum]

That's impressive, mauseoleum just made an invalid connection between TWO phenomenons he obviously knows bugger all about at an engineering level.

You sure?

I'm not a programmer if you imply that.

Edit: btw. if you are not comfortable with the fact that I did correctly find out what the given processes were, then it is _you_ who must _prove_ your _counter_logic_ and _credentials_, not me. I have already proved "corectness" of my judgement.

Otherwise you are only showing that:
- your hearing or judgement is substandard or _skewed_
- your reasoning is catering toward those who would like to "prove" there is no difference
- btw. what are your _eingeneering_ credentials? (not programming etc.)

Again, you imply a "connection" between two phenomenons, which I am suposed to establish.

May I ask where? "Impendance" in digital?
Erm ...

What I said is: "_reminded_", and I'm pretty sure that quite a lot of audio eingineers would confirm that "impendance mismatch" can be _heard_ (!) In other words: sounding sub-optimal.

Prove me wrong.

[Christian Budde]

Before this ends up in a war please let me moderate a bit:
Due lack of statistical depth every assumption here is still a guess. If someone here want's to prove, that he hears a difference, he needs to do at least 15 trials minimum! And even then it will be hard to prove that you didn't fake.
In my challenge it was still quite easy to cheat. Either you could have a look at the disassembly, or crack the zip password (zip isn't very save) or have a look at the CPU meter, or switch very rapidely between algorithms (the state variables were reset every time, by which you could probably here some hint). However only 'closed' ABX tests can reliable unveil if you really hear a difference. In that case both algorithms run side-by-side and switching between both is equal all the time.

So unless anybody comes up with such a test, every assumption here is only a guess.

Christian

[JonHodgson]

That's impressive, mauseoleum just made an invalid connection between TWO phenomenons he obviously knows bugger all about at an engineering level.

You sure?

I'm not a programmer if you imply that.

No I don't, you're also not an electronics engineer obviously.

Edit: btw. if you are not comfortable with the fact that I did correctly find out what the given processes were, then it is _you_ who must _prove_ your _counter_logic_ and _credentials_, not me. I have already proved "corectness" of my judgement.

Who said anything about proving there was no difference IN THIS PARTICULAR IMPLEMENTATION?

However you started from the premise that integer inherently has something different in the bass, which is fundamentally wrong.

That you correctly guessed the three formats used in this particular instance is not actually that remarkable, for a start you've only got six possibie arrangements, which would give you a 17% chance of getting it right through pure guesswork, but also you have two integer implementations, neither of which is optimized for the limitations of the format and one of which is going to have larger errors in the same places, so any "character" caused by errors in the 64 bit integer version is likely to be increased in the 32 bit integer version.

But even if you can say "in this integer implementation there is a difference in the bass", that does not mean you can extrapolate that integer implementations will always affect the bass, nor indeed that they will always make any audible difference whatsoever.

Otherwise you are only showing that:
- your hearing or judgement is substandard or _skewed_
- your reasoning is catering toward those who would like to "prove" there is no difference
- btw. what are your _eingeneering_ credentials? (not programming etc.)

I am an electronics engineer and a software engineer who has worked much of his life around audio (3d sound, synths, amps, codecs)... I am not a recording engineer (though I dabble).

Again, you imply a "connection" between two phenomenons, which I am suposed to establish.

No, you implied the connection, I simply responded sarcastically to it.

May I ask where? "Impendance" in digital?
Erm ...

Well that we do agree on

What I said is: "_reminded_", and I'm pretty sure that quite a lot of audio eingineers would confirm that "impendance mismatch" can be _heard_ (!) In other words: sounding sub-optimal.

Prove me wrong.

Electronic engineers (that's me) would agree that impedance mismatches can be heard, but from your description I concluded that you don't really understand what is actually going on in there at an electronics level.

[nuffink]

Nuffink, if you want to quote, quote "exact".

Otherwise, remove my name from the quote, because that isn't what I said.

For those interested:
what I did say is written on previous page.

No, I don't think so. But congrats on getting your guess right against the massive, astronomical, impossible odds of 6 to 1.

[mauseoleum]

No I don't, you're also not an electronics engineer obviously.

You are wrong. I have said education, while I'm employed in artistic field, registered with our Ministry of Culture.

But, in certain period of my life I also actively designed custom analog audio circuitry for recording usage, which was deployed and used in some local studios where I live. Not a big deal whatsoever, but I happen to know what I speak of while talking of impendance mismatches, because this were the most painful and sound-degrading issues on an _otherwise_healthy_ signal path, sometimes requiring re-buffering and similar solutions.

Not that it matters, or I own such equipment, but I was also introduced to _audibly_ different output of Waves TDM versus VST versions (on ppc boxes). Which _other_ engineers noticed first! Maybe this is over-simplified and I don't know the technical details (do I really need to know them ...), but I believe there's float vs. int, too, going on there. In other words: this difference isn't anything new and lots of people know it.

No, you implied the connection, I simply responded sarcastically to it.

Again wrong, repeatedly so. I emphasized a "similarity" in the audible aspect. I said it reminded me on "what happens in case of such impendance mismatch". Then again, I can understand that you want to "prove your right ..." and you are sticking to your guns.

Electronic engineers (that's me) would agree that impedance mismatches can be heard, but from your description I concluded that you don't really understand what is actually going on in there at an electronics level.

I gave absolutely _no_ such description from which the above quoted conclusion could be made as a positive conclusion. This, Sir _you_have_made_up_ in it's entirety. Speaking as an engineer myself, this very moment.


@nuffink:
You want to appear smart, do you? But you are just _lying_ about what I really said and now you want to wiggle out of it this way.


Now, excuse me, I'm out of here for precisely these reasons:

- I'm not in a bit interested to watch _insults_ and stuffing my statements with ambiguous quotes
- I don't produce or sell any DSP-related plugins, whatever, so I'm not interested in participating in either camp (float - int), this is the DSP coder's "war" ... so to speak, have your field-day
- I haven't seen any logically valid _counter_arguments_ yet, only wiggly-woggly ones.

[Urs]

_audibly_ different output of Waves TDM versus VST versions

This is probably a bug. Or, that company deliberately crippled the VST version to justify the extra $$$ that they charged for TDM versions, while the VST market already had reasonable prices.

I'm not too familiar with these analogue engineering matters, but I know one thing for sure: Any audible difference between the same algorithm in int64 vs. float64 can only be a bug, or it is due to other parts in the processing chain (converters anyone?). If they sound different, they are different.

Cheers,

Urs

[nuffink]

Christian,

How many people downloaded the plugin?