KVR Audio

living sounds · Post by **living sounds** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:10 pm

So it is digital. They don't even make that clear really at the website. There are no specs. I wouldn't buy anything with so little information availible...
And your right of course, going in and out through cheap converters isn't something you should do to your signal.

Omniphonix · Post by **Omniphonix** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:12 pm

To my knowledge, TC Electronic does not make any analog gear.

birrbits · Post by **birrbits** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:49 am

Thanks for the info guys, food for though regarding the digital nature of the C300. Regarding plugins though, they still wouldn't be able to achieve the tracking functionality (limiting) that I am looking for. I'm more than happy to use them afterwards. Maybe its time to buy that RNC (again)

.

metamorphosis · Post by **metamorphosis** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:10 am

You could try the black lion audio mods on your existing equipment - they upgrade the preamps if you pay extra-

Omniphonix · Post by **Omniphonix** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:40 am

Well I had a listen to a bunch of preamp comparisons over at http://www.thelisteningsessions.com/home.htm and I can't for the life of me distinguish any kind of difference between various preamps. I even compared a very expensive Millennia Media HV-3D and a very cheap M-Audio Tampa and I just don't hear the difference. Maybe my ears just aren't pro enough? Maybe its because they are MP3 examples (mind you, they are all 320k)? I have really nice JBL 4300 series monitors and also tried my really nice Sony V900 headphones, I just couldn't hear the difference. Maybe its because the test material was a drum loop? What kinds of things should I be paying attention to when A/Bing preamps?

On another note, I can't help but keep looking at the Mackie Onyx 1200F. I mean, for $1600, those preamps have to be as good as they say they are, right? I could see getting into something like this more as I can upgrade from my MOTU and not have to drop as much cash, but this preamp comparison thing has me stumped.

metamorphosis · Post by **metamorphosis** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:05 am

This may give you some more information about where your signal chain can be best improved:
http://www.blacklionaudio.com/motu_firewire_mod.html
m@

Omniphonix · Post by **Omniphonix** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:19 am

metamorphosis wrote:This may give you some more information about where your signal chain can be best improved:
http://www.blacklionaudio.com/motu_firewire_mod.html
m@

Hmmm... now this is quite interesting. I wonder how they can get the preamps sounding so much better for only $30 a channel. Either way, this may just be the cheapest upgrade option. Thanks for the tip!

living sounds · Post by **living sounds** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:35 am

You listened to the drum machine samples, keep in mind that the differences are rather smaller since there is no of actual amplification going on, they use it as DI only. Plus the preamps are fed from the output of a Korg workstation, so what they put through them is a signal that comes from a DAC, got converted more than once. Listen to vocal or guitar signals recorded directly, and differencs will be a lot more obvious.

That said, there are audible differences even with the drum machines, there is more high end and low end in the Millenia signal and the Tampa has a harshness that's audible on the hihats.

Your monitors are probably OK, but what about converters? You won't really hear the differences with mediocre converters.

Omniphonix wrote:Well I had a listen to a bunch of preamp comparisons over at http://www.thelisteningsessions.com/home.htm and I can't for the life of me distinguish any kind of difference between various preamps. I even compared a very expensive Millennia Media HV-3D and a very cheap M-Audio Tampa and I just don't hear the difference. Maybe my ears just aren't pro enough? Maybe its because they are MP3 examples (mind you, they are all 320k)? I have really nice JBL 4300 series monitors and also tried my really nice Sony V900 headphones, I just couldn't hear the difference. Maybe its because the test material was a drum loop? What kinds of things should I be paying attention to when A/Bing preamps?

On another note, I can't help but keep looking at the Mackie Onyx 1200F. I mean, for $1600, those preamps have to be as good as they say they are, right? I could see getting into something like this more as I can upgrade from my MOTU and not have to drop as much cash, but this preamp comparison thing has me stumped.

Spratman · Post by **Spratman** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:26 am

Omniphonix wrote:
metamorphosis wrote:This may give you some more information about where your signal chain can be best improved:
http://www.blacklionaudio.com/motu_firewire_mod.html
m@
Hmmm... now this is quite interesting. I wonder how they can get the preamps sounding so much better for only $30 a channel. Either way, this may just be the cheapest upgrade option. Thanks for the tip!

That's quite easy to figure out from what they've said.

They're replacing the opamps with different, more expensive ones (there are so many opamps out there, and telling which ones are better or more worthwhile is a bit of an art from what I understand)
And replacing the TLC2933 with something else that has better specs

At the end of the day the units are built to a price....and maybe better opamps would've pushed things a bit too far for motu in this case.

Spratman

living sounds · Post by **living sounds** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:13 am

The opamp problem is a disgrace to the whole industry. Take the 1820m/1212m for instance: It has some of Crystal's finest converter chips in it, but they use the worst kind of opamp from jrc. The noise/distortion specs are great, but the sound really suffers, the opamps put haze on the signal. If they'd used 3$ opamps instead of 20c opamps the card would sound A LOT better. It's understandable in this case, as the EMU soundcards are really inexpensive. But it's the same with nearly every other manufacturer, in products that are a lot more expensive. Even the Benchmarc DAC could use better opamps. It's a mystery to me why those companys don't use proper components...

Omniphonix · Post by **Omniphonix** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:28 pm

living sounds wrote:You listened to the drum machine samples, keep in mind that the differences are rather smaller since there is no of actual amplification going on, they use it as DI only. Plus the preamps are fed from the output of a Korg workstation, so what they put through them is a signal that comes from a DAC, got converted more than once. Listen to vocal or guitar signals recorded directly, and differencs will be a lot more obvious.

That said, there are audible differences even with the drum machines, there is more high end and low end in the Millenia signal and the Tampa has a harshness that's audible on the hihats.

Your monitors are probably OK, but what about converters? You won't really hear the differences with mediocre converters.

Well, after posting, I went and listened to some of the differences between preamps on the acoustic guitar and vocal material and I still hardly noticed a difference between preamps. Yes, it may very well be the D/A on the way to my monitors or the analog output chain, but I still figured I'd perceive some difference. I noticed quite a distinction in microphones and its making me start to question my Shure KSM44. It seems to me like this is one of those things where the distinction between a bad preamp and a good one is pretty obvious, but the distinction between a good preamp and a great one is that last one or two percent. This points me to a Black Lion mod with new preamps for my MOTU and a few more microphones. I don't think a $1500 preamp is the answer.

Omniphonix · Post by **Omniphonix** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:55 am

Okay, got my appointment all setup with Black Lion Audio for November 1st. I've heard almost nothing but good things about them in various forums around the net. For those 99% who had no problems with their unit after getting it back, they all seem to be singing the praises of how it sounds after the mod. Wish me luck!

Compressors, Preamps, and Getting Vocals into the DAW