Remastered song -- opinions?

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Thanks Alex, <grin>

yes please send me the remaster,

On it's way brother

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Listening on the Blumenstein Ultra-Fi custom Sonic Sentries speakers (running through some shitty amps while I wait for the custom amp to get done).

I listened to both the old master and the new one. I like the new one a lot better. The bass seems to be under control a lot better and everything sounds a lot clearer. The vocal also doesn't seem so boomy anymore either, fitting in better with the relaxed feel of the track.

It sounds like everything moved in the right direction but most of my other comments would be on the mix rather than the master.

Blumenstein Ultra-Fi custom Sonic Sentries speakers!

Thanks for taking the time to listen to both versions and technically compare!

You might understand how great it is to know you're making progress in mastering -- I have never really had the golden ear when it comes to mastering and no doubt the reason is live gigging in front of Marshall stacks for decades...

Recently I listened to two of my songs that were recorded and mastered (by me) about a month apart -- they were so totally different in quality I almost threw my DAW out the window...

So, last month I sat me down to try and see if I could achieve a better quality and learn to use some hearing compensation, and it's great to know I appear to be making some progress there.

Cheers & Thanks again mate,
Alex

Well, keep up the good work: mastering is tricky business, but that's why I count on Kilroy at Headroom Productions.

The Sonic Sentries are really nice and I've been very happy with them ever since I got them. I hear they pale in comparison to the Feastrex drivers that Clark Blumenstein helps work on these days, but I don't have $60,000 to spend on the drivers, let alone the rest of the cabinet and assembly for those speakers...

Kilroy is amazing!

He remastered a demo of mine about a year ago and it was superbly done (not just my opinion).

He tried to school me up on phase correction and things I had no clue about.

Very talented man!

60 Grand!

Brother, if I had that sort of cash I could buy me a trailer home instead of renting this wee flat and get me a dog and have a garden too (a small dream of mine)!


By the way -- if you have comments on the mix please don't hold back. That kind of info is priceless to me.


Cheers,
Alex

[Per Lichtman]

Yeah, 60 grand is pretty rich for my blood at the moment. But if you live near Tokyo or will be in Denver ca. a month and a half from now you could still hear the system in question... and make me really jealous that I couldn't be there!

In terms of the mix, I'd work on the balance between the bass and the other elements: it gets a tiny bit too wild. The main thing that needs work though, is the treatment of the vocal.

It's good that you are not satisfied with the standard vocal sound but I'd suggest making duplicates of it and trying different processing on each instead of the Waves effect you mentioned. Then, once you have the character you like, try and see what the most "essential" parts of the vocal spectrum are and turn down the rest a bit.

The issue with the way the vocal is mixed at the moment is that it sounds like all parts of the spectrum are valued equally and this keeps it from sounding either too solid or too transparent/airy/clear because the unintended frequencies are as strong as the intended ones. Try the usual frequency sweep trick to see if there's any part you'd like to cut.

But other than the vocal and bass, the elements are sitting pretty well in the mix. You're doing something sort of retro-jazz-lounge-influenced by atonal classical-experimental in terms of the composition and that's unusual these days so it's difficult to give any sort of formula, but I think you're headed in the right direction.

[Per Lichtman]

PS: Vocals are hard. If they are present in a mix, the average listener will listen to them much more than the other elements and an otherwise fantastic mix can sound like a demo if the vocal isn't up to snuff. So don't take my comments about potential work on the vocal as disparaging at all.

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...some fantastic info

Oh man -- absolute gold -- NOT disparaging at all! Thanks PAL

It's the vocals I always have the most difficult time with, even though I record them and any live instruments in a fairly pristine environment.

I have cut & pasted your advice to my DAW and am going to sit back and have a long listen and try the things you've mentioned. A lot of times I really do think that musicians have no bloody business mastering their own music, but we must try I suppose.

On the main doubling track (which I backed down for this remaster) I am using Waves R-Vox and maybe it is too saturated?

I remember Kilroy told me to try SpectraQ for overall final mastering but I haven't been able to as yet. I took a look at it though and it looks amazing. He also took the time to slam Waves L2 and L3 for killing harmonics and so forth -- and I have learned a lot from that. Unfortunately, I took the plunge two years ago on the Waves suite and took their on-line mastering course.

What I've realised since then is that Waves is great for a generic (perhaps broadcast?) mixing, but for creative music efforts containing subtle phrasing and intonation (especially live mic'ed instruments), it's often like taking a hammer to a feather, and I have seen that happen a lot to my songs.

Really REALLY appreciate your time here mate! That's a great point about listener's with vocals -- I totally agree. Back to the drawing board and, if I may, when I'm done, I'll send you a PM to a new version link to see what you think when you've the time.

BTW -- I can't believe what I am learning just listening to your tracks -- your music is stunning! At the moment I can only dream of merely approaching that kind of instrumentation and production. I am very, very impressed.

Cheers,
Alex

[Per Lichtman]

Thanks for the very kind words Alex. Feel free to PM me when you're done.

Btw, you're definitely not alone with the Waves bundles. There are some definite strengths to make use of in the bundle if you already are using it btw. The visualization plugs are quite useful and there haven't been many alternatives to the S1-Imager available for very long and the IR-1 is useful for making very short impulses sound quite lush (though it has trouble with longer ones). The R-Vox tends to make things a little thicker and darker so it can add weight to a track that seems think or needs that kind of coloration. It used to be the main in the box compressor at Dreamtown music before I got there.


At Dreamtown for vocals now we generally use one of the following: Sonalksis SV-315, the Abbey Road Plug-ins Limiter or (most recently) the UAD Neve 33609. In fact that last one seems to work magic on all of Joanna St. Claire's new vocals, but a lot of people don't like DSP cards so I understand that.

[kilroy]

I remember Kilroy told me to try SpectraQ for overall final mastering...

Whoa... Now, that must have been an entirely different kilroy, Alex.

This particular kilroy prefers to stay far, far away from those kind of exciter/enhancer thingies...especially on mixes. Yikes...

He also took the time to slam Waves L2 and L3 for killing harmonics and so forth...

The Waves L2 is OK if you just need a bit of something to keep the ceiling of the mix, but I am not fond of the sound when you push into it too much. The L3, though, is a bit of a mix shredder. Any processing that uses crossover frequency dividing networks in conjunction with dynamic amplitude enveloping topologies can be expected to chafe at your mix in some pretty undesirable ways.


You know what they say about opinions, though.

[kilroy]

By the by, Alex...good to hear you are still at it. You've one of the most unique voices on KVR, to be sure.

[kilroy]

Listening on the Blumenstein Ultra-Fi custom Sonic Sentries speakers...

No one likes a show off, Per.

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I remember Kilroy told me to try SpectraQ for overall final mastering...

Whoa... Now, that must have been an entirely different kilroy, Alex.

This particular kilroy prefers to stay far, far away from those kind of exciter/enhancer thingies...especially on mixes. Yikes...

He also took the time to slam Waves L2 and L3 for killing harmonics and so forth...

The Waves L2 is OK if you just need a bit of something to keep the ceiling of the mix, but I am not fond of the sound when you push into it too much. The L3, though, is a bit of a mix shredder. Any processing that uses crossover frequency dividing networks in conjunction with dynamic amplitude enveloping topologies can be expected to chafe at your mix in some pretty undesirable ways.


You know what they say about opinions, though.

I only know one Kilroy that would go "...crossover frequency dividing networks in conjunction with dynamic amplitude enveloping topologies..."


I am sorry if I quoted you out of context there brother -- must have been someone else that talked about the SpectraQ thing -- or maybe you were using it as an example of phase correction-capabilities or in comparison (of something) in our conversation? My mind is.....

Remember this?

MOTIGATON

* I have no idea how you managed to work the wonders you did on this with the shit mix I originally gave you.


** Thanks for those good words mate -- helps to keep this crazy man trudging through the tundra!

Best,
Alex

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@PAL

Joanna St. Claire

It must be an insanely creative pleasure to work with her (with any one of you).

Well, in my fledgling mastering chain, I've been using the recommended sequence of the S-1 in line with the LMB and so on. I've tried other imagers like Bluetube's but it seems to add 'color' in real-time processing whereas the Waves S1 seems (to my ears) to be transparent. Yes I do like the Waves interfaces generally -- clean and functional. Yep -- I am aiming for the UAD Neve system (see what Santa brings)

Quite honestly, I am still scratching my head as to how to get separation, placement and depth like you've achieved in your music **a fabulous 3-D universe of sound**. It looks easy on the drawing board, but in practicality, when I have a piece with complex instrumentation and a number of more widely-varied elements (coupled with my limited toolkit), I find it a daunting task. In the end, I often end up with what sounds like a lot of sounds being poured into a big funnel and all squashed together when it comes out other end (well -- not quite that bad). So that's largely what I am concentrating on now -- and much of it with live recorded instruments. The more I learn, the less I know....

Thanks again Per -- MUCH appreciated dialogue.
Alex

[Per Lichtman]

Listening on the Blumenstein Ultra-Fi custom Sonic Sentries speakers...

No one likes a show off, Per.

Sorry, but after the week it took to re-arrange the studio so I could fit them in... I just had to take the OP up on mentioning what I listened on.

[Per Lichtman]

Well, in my fledgling mastering chain, I've been using the recommended sequence of the S-1 in line with the LMB and so on. I've tried other imagers like Bluetube's but it seems to add 'color' in real-time processing whereas the Waves S1 seems (to my ears) to be transparent. Yes I do like the Waves interfaces generally -- clean and functional. Yep -- I am aiming for the UAD Neve system (see what Santa brings)

Quite honestly, I am still scratching my head as to how to get separation, placement and depth like you've achieved in your music **a fabulous 3-D universe of sound**. It looks easy on the drawing board, but in practicality, when I have a piece with complex instrumentation and a number of more widely-varied elements (coupled with my limited toolkit), I find it a daunting task. In the end, I often end up with what sounds like a lot of sounds being poured into a big funnel and all squashed together when it comes out other end (well -- not quite that bad). So that's largely what I am concentrating on now -- and much of it with live recorded instruments. The more I learn, the less I know....

Thanks again Per -- MUCH appreciated dialogue.
Alex

Yes, my impression of the Waves S-1 is that it can be quite neutral while panning as well. The Bluetubes one is one of the few panning products I haven't tried so I can't comment yet, but I personally really wish that Joachim would port his Buzz machines "Power Pan" or "Deep Pan" to VST because they do some really unusual and cool panning things that I have not been able to replicate with any other panner on it's own.

In terms of depth, here are some of the things I find help a lot. Some apply more to my own music and some more to Joanna's.

1) Volume automation can really be your friend: More than any compressor, extensive volume automation can help you to really define and express the depth of a part without being abrasive. Experiment with using volume automation on a track before it goes to a compressor (for instance by putting the compressor on a bus and sending the vocal to it) vs. using volume automation after a compressor (which is how things usually work if you just use the compressor as an insert on the track itself).

2) Hi-pass and low-pass or low cut and high cut filters are your friend! Rolling off the high end can often make a part seem more distant and so when you leave it in for other parts they tend to seem closer. Rolling off the low end off anything where you don't want to hear it (for instance you don't need 50hz frequenices on a normal violin recording) or where it isn't working (maybe a vocal is too earthy and you want it to float more) can really help. Basically, try to only keep what you want and it tends to get easier to place sounds in the mix.

3) Put a high-pass or low-cut filter on any reverb, IR, delay or modulation effect and sweep it up until it starts reducing frequencies you actually like. Then back it down a bit. This can help keep the mix clear and may allow you to use more reverb send on some tracks if you want to. Also, as my fellow Wusik Magazine staff member Alex Arsov has mentioned, using a pre-delay time of at least 8 ms can help to seperate the dry signal from the reverb signal. But on many of my pieces, I don't want that seperation.

4) Regardless of what reverbs or IRs you are using for the rest of the tracks, make sure that the vocal gets some individual treatment. Try sending to both a plate reverb and the main reverb (or substitute/compliment the main reverb with one if it's own). Audio Damage's Reverance is one of my two plate reverbs of choice and is really cheap (plus it can really make a sound wider if you like it too). The UAD Plate 140 has a very different sound that intrigues me and I want to spend more time with. My initial impression has been that it adds less body and stereo depth but can seem more "spacious" and possibly a little warmer and less up front. Two quite interesting colors.

5) If you ever going look for an IR library, check out the Pure Spaces series from Ernest Cholakis. The clarity of his impulses is incredible and the new Hollywood IRs library adds the option of tonal shaping (bright, clear, warm, etc.) in a way that's really unusual and impressive. Some of the impulses are too long to use in their entirety in the IR-1 but they are still a great buy for IR-1 owners.

So, to sort of sum a bit of that up: eq, verb and panning are some of your best tools for depth but don't overlook the overall level of the element and the power of volume automation.

@PAL

Joanna St. Claire

It must be an insanely creative pleasure to work with her (with any one of you).

Thanks Alex, I can't begin to tell you how amazing it is to work with Joanna St. Claire and Hila Plitmann. Their two separate projects are so different, personal and original and yet they both share several qualities:

- They can really tell what they like and they give you the space to try all sorts of different things to get there.

- They have amazing voices that light up a recording and make the mixing process so much easier.

- They are incredibly kind, sweet and good natured people that you can't help but want to do your best work with.

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Oh man! Brilliant info! I reckon I need to send you a remittance for 'Consulting Fees'

I use Waves IR but only possess the standard IR library that comes with it. I need to check out these other releases as, although their standard library is great, it's getting a little stale for me I think.

You've got me pretty jazzed here -- I'm just firing up the DAW to experiment in the autolanes with volume levels -- it never even occurred to me to try this on the raw track and move the compressors into an aux bus.

After hearing from you and Kilroy and the others, I reckon I am going to redo the vocal tracks from scratch and go from there. I will send you the link in a PM when I am done -- don't wanna crowd up the Cafe with yet another version

On freqs -- I've used Bobcat's frequency chart for years as a guide (though I actually hand-drew one of my own previously). Of course that helps, but it's always been just a rough placement guide I know, and with the range and dynamics of all the newer VSTi and newer DSP/FX, there are newer dimensions to explore and get used to (did that make any sense?)... How would Kilroy phrase that?

Honestly, when I joined KVR I knew absolutely nothing about VSTi -- only what I'd heard or read about. I've had heaps of H/W signal processors & synths (have tried and owned most all H/W) all road-racked and ready to fly. 7+ years later and I am now doing a lot of my own recording, and my home DAW is steadily becoming more sophisticated and capable -- so as it stands I am so excited with what I can do by myself these days and the effort & money I save compared to what I was having to do just a few years ago that I reckon I am living in a constant state of amazement

I look at my minimoog over in the corner and cannot believe all that has changed.

BTW -- let me plug a little baby I helped give birth to a few years back: Kong Audio Some major pros are using these tools now -- especially in film scoring -- you might really enjoy tinkering with them a bit -- especially what I like to call *The Kong* percussion set, which I used exclusively in the song here Grabacab.

I'll try to check out Pure Spaces series and see if I can manage a preview -- and work on all the new homework you've given me

Working with your mates sounds like heaven -- nothing beats working with talented, mellow, creative professionals. If there's ever the slightest thing I can help you with, please let me know (my music reference page is kaput at the moment but will be back up soonly).

Thanks again Per for all your time!
Alex

[Per Lichtman]

BTW -- let me plug a little baby I helped give birth to a few years back: Kong Audio Some major pros are using these tools now -- especially in film scoring -- you might really enjoy tinkering with them a bit -- especially what I like to call *The Kong* percussion set, which I used exclusively in the song here Grabacab.

I had no idea you worked on that. Very cool. I used the free versions (including the stuff bundled with Computer Music Magazine at a few points) of the winds for several jam sessions and though I have yet to use them on a commercial tracks I remember thinking just how unique the sound of those winds were.

The Kong winds struck me as being quite different from those in Quantum Leap Rare Instruments (later incorporated into RA) and other libraries I had a chance to listen to. They were tremendously easy to use and a lot of fun. I think Computer Music Magazine liked them even more than I did though.

What was your part in the project:?: You've got me all curious now.

I'll look into the Kong Percussion library. Thanks for mentioning it.