Experimental music defined

[jplanet]

I have a lot of thoughts on this, being a composer of progressive rock, there are fans of the genre who hold that definition to its literal meaning, and I frequently bump heads with them.

It is my opinion that experimentation should be transparent to the listener. By this I mean, I do not want to subject the listeners to everything I experimented with that did not work. This also implies that I have a certain aesthetic - I want to produce things that I would want to listen to -- and I do have a preference for at least some traditional melodies and rhythms. I don't mind, however, if it takes many listens to fully grasp what's happening.

It took me a few years of listening to various Miles Davis albums before it just clicked for me. Bitches Brew is a very challenging album, but once the familiarity is there, it's something you crave! And that can be a very satisfying musical experience. Same thing with King Crimson - at first I thought it was just arty noise, then once I acclimated to what was happening, it all made perfect sense.

IMHO, some fans of "experimental", or "avante-garde", or, ahem, "true" progressive music, are really just people who enjoy more dissonant melodies, or to whom repetition can become easily irritating. If we review the ingredients of what people consider to be experimental:

- Melodies that avoid predictable structure - in doing so, actually adhere to structures that are just as deliberate as the traditional ones by using sharp 4th and 5ths, flat 9ths, microtonic scales, etc.
- Rhythms that avoid traditional rhythm - inevitable follow predictably disjointed-sounding meters, polyrhythms.
- Avoidance of repetition.

So, really, the experiments were done by composers hundreds of years ago, anyone employing these devices since the first person to try it is no longer experimenting, they are simply rehashing dissonances used many times before - it's music that is only unpredictable if you expect it to be melodic, or have an easily discernible pattern.

Now, the real genius is with composers who can avoid conventional devices, but do it in such a way that no listener can tell...But nobody would ever categorize that music as experimental. Because the experiment worked!

[Chuck E. Jesus]

the scrotum is a cool place to hang out.

that's your own personal option, and i wish you well with that...

[justin3am]

P.S. I love this quote from Vieris' signature.

"Any experiment of interest in life will be carried out at your own expense."

[justin3am]

So, really, the experiments were done by composers hundreds of years ago, anyone employing these devices since the first person to try it is no longer experimenting, they are simply rehashing dissonances used many times before - it's music that is only unpredictable if you expect it to be melodic, or have an easily discernible pattern.

I don't agree with this at all (though it doesn't mean you are wrong). Just because something has been done before doesn't mean that you it can't be an experiment. It's like when we did lab experiments at school, we were following a procedure that had been done millions of times before but it is still an experiment.

An experiment, as far, as I'm concerned is just something you are trying to learn from or challenge yourself with. In the context of music, the experiment might be concerning the audiences reaction to a piece, or how a device reacts to operating in a way it wasn't designed to be used. You can even perform musical experiments on yourself. The means behind the experiment doesn't necessarily have to be adventurous or boundary pushing. IMO or course.

[dan_s]

the scrotum is a cool place to hang out.

that's your own personal option, and i wish you well with that...

its science

[jplanet]

So, really, the experiments were done by composers hundreds of years ago, anyone employing these devices since the first person to try it is no longer experimenting, they are simply rehashing dissonances used many times before - it's music that is only unpredictable if you expect it to be melodic, or have an easily discernible pattern.

I don't agree with this at all (though it doesn't mean you are wrong). Just because something has been done before doesn't mean that you it can't be an experiment. It's like when we did lab experiments at school, we were following a procedure that had been done millions of times before but it is still an experiment.

An experiment, as far, as I'm concerned is just something you are trying to learn from or challenge yourself with. In the context of music, the experiment might be concerning the audiences reaction to a piece, or how a device reacts to operating in a way it wasn't designed to be used. You can even perform musical experiments on yourself. The means behind the experiment doesn't necessarily have to be adventurous or boundary pushing. IMO or course.

You might not expect this response, but I agree with you completely!

I recently wrote a very hard-edged instrumental. I was tasked with writing a piece about a specific literary character who turns evil and murders people -- most of what I have written in the past is either funky, pretty, or psychedelic if it's heavy. This was out of character for me, and I needed different results, so I had to use a different approach. It will probably sound like a familiar style to any listener, but it was a huge experiment for me. In this definition, there is no possible way for a listener to know if the composer experimented or not...

So, in my first post, I was approaching the definition from the standpoint of there being a perceived genre called Experimental Music, which, I suppose, is from the point of view of the listener, as I've encountered so many fans of what many people consider to be that genre....

[justin3am]

Cool! I was just hoping I didn't come off as contrary.
This is actually a subject I have much interest in and I honestly feel that there is no wrong way to go about it. I think that everyone should leave their comfort zone once in a while and I personally try to challenge what I "know" as often as possible. That is what makes music fun for me.

[Chuck E. Jesus]

the scrotum is a cool place to hang out.

that's your own personal option, and i wish you well with that...

its science

i suppose the balls need to hang low for scientific reasons... but you hanging out with them is your own beeswax...

[herodotus]

I thought herodotus' remark very insightful:

And it is quite easy to imagine experimental music that would not be at all alienating to most people. For example, just design a randomizer of some sort (many vst instruments have randomizer functions, especially samplers) that is restricted to playing only the notes of a standard pentatonic scale using only eighth notes at 100 bpm in 4/4 time.

From this perspective, experimental music doesn't have to sound weird or distateful. At the same time, experimental music doesn't show up on the charts tracking what the culture considers the best music to be had at any given time.

Thanks.

And in the spirit of friendly experimentation, I have uploaded the makings of a musical experiment that everyone can partake in.

experimental music kit

This is something very like what I described, only not.

It is a bunch of loops and an sfz mapping of them.

Every key between d#3 and e6 plays a loop that is coordinated around a tempo of 260 (or 130) beats a minute. The loops are all in tune with each other. Some are untuned percussion, some are little bits of melody, some are kick drums playing relentlessly on '1', some are synth-pulse loops.

But the fun part is that each type of loop comes in 4 different time signatures: 3/8, 4/8, 5/8, and 7/8.

If you hit any two (or 3 or 12) keys at exactly the same time, they will be rhythmically and harmonically coordinated, and will stay rhythmically coordinated indefinately, as the samples are cut to sample accurate proportions. The number of possible polyrhythms that can pop up are many.

There are also a couple of 4 beat and 8 beat backward cymbal crash samples for those who might just want to 'shake it', and need a cliche to establish communal cycles of tension and release.

Just unzip the above download and load the sfz file called 'polyrandom' into any sfz player. It works best if you have a keyboard with a latch function.

[justin3am]

It is a bunch of loops and an sfz mapping of them.

Awesome! I'll play when I get a chance.

[dan_s]

the scrotum is a cool place to hang out.

that's your own personal option, and i wish you well with that...

its science

i suppose the balls need to hang low for scientific reasons... but you hanging out with them is your own beeswax...

now its yours too.

[ozmoz2008]

and i get to sound all hoity toity n posh when i say "pfft, musician? i my friend am a sound sculpter!"

Taking sound where it has never gone before. Which, I guess, would make it experimental and original simultaneously.

As for originality, that's another matter...
As a comparaison, let's say that we all write in english on this forum, but even if we all use the same language, it doesn't mean that we loose our own integrity, our own little "individuality"...or "originality" for that matter...

So even within any genre, in my perspective anyone can find his or her own originality, as long as they listen to their inner voice instead of only following "patterns" establish by others(even if they follow some rules, they have to establish their own views within those rules to let their personnality and originality shine)...In fact originality is not related in any matter to a specific genre or trend, but more to the ability to let the innerself shine through the self expression in art...in our case "music"

And if this self expression implies experimentation....as a way to see things...then experimental music or process is the way to go !

[jplanet]

the scrotum is a cool place to hang out.

that's your own personal option, and i wish you well with that...

its science

i suppose the balls need to hang low for scientific reasons... but you hanging out with them is your own beeswax...

now its yours too.

Christ Almighty, will you gals go get a hotel room or go watch some Bro Rape videos on YouTube or something, three people tried taking the thread back to music and away from homophobe balls-teasing, to no avail...

[ozmoz2008]

When I use the term experiment in the context of music, I'm usually referring to a process related to the scientific method. I develop a hypothesis based on known parameters (my control) and I seek a specific outcome by varying those parameters in a way that I can track and take note of the results. The process is the experiment the result is just a sound, and contrary to what many would figure, if the experiment results in the sound i was expecting it is a successful experiment (one which furthers my understanding of how I interact with sound) and an unexpected result is a failed experiment (one in which my hypothesis is proven incorrect).

But, history showed us that lots of great discovery where the fruit of accident and unexpected results of experiments...it's one of the true nature of creativity in relation with irrationality...

Many of my compositions have accidents in them...and the funny thing is that those are the parts I almost like the most ...after some time away from these compositions...

In fact, changes and evolution are almost always related to accidents, "impacts" ...one way or another...IMO, evolution of music is no exception

I personnaly think that the genius is to recognize which "accidents" have something significant for yourself and also others who will listen to it

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Thank you for the SoundFont set, will have a play with it. I appreciate the gesture alot herodotus. Maybe if everyone who downloads it and then uses it and captures the results in real time, and we then all upload whatever results we each got, then that would be a pretty good experiment in itself as we can compare how they differ from one another despite starting with the same source.
I would be game for doing that if it sounds like a good idea to anyone else?

Dean/Nekro