i use slayer2 alot, but don't always like the onboard effects. so i run it clean out and use either amplitube or guitar rig. i've also been pretty happy with just a tube simulator or the acmebargig stuff. i have sample tank, and plugsound plucked strings, kontact4. all of those have some very nice sample sets. the problem for me has been to automate the instrument within my sequencer (orion) so that it sounds like someone playing. the closest i've come is slayer2. here's a link to about the best i've been able to do so far:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=1501421
it's slayer2 clean with it's onboard wahwah out to amplitube. i know it doesn't really sound real, but best i think i've done. there's another tune i did on my soundclick page that i think sounds pretty convincing, too called 'rubbed raw'.
Best virtual guitar?
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- KVRer
- 13 posts since 3 Jan, 2010
A detailed (aka long-winded) post on virtual guitar instruments) based on my limited experiences.
The type of guitar instrument one should buy depends on several factors. Most important is how much effort one is willing to put into learning and using it. If you're not into spending hours/days/weeks/months developing the knowledge and skills required to simulate the guitar on a keyboard (or in a piano-roll), then an app with prerecorded passages is likely the way to go, preferably with the option to modify said passages (ie Ueberschall's "Liquid Guitar" looks like a fantastic guitar-instrument in that category).
For those who want to create realistic rhythm and lead electric guitar parts from scratch, there are a few options too, and I'll talk about the ones I like why I like them. Creating guitar parts from scratch can be very tricky, mainly for two reasons:
1-The most important reason highly realistic fake-guitar is so difficult to achieve is that the average guitar-synth/sampler-user doesn't know how to play a real guitar...otherwise they wouldn't be pissing around with a fake guitar...no? The most common reason for a listener to groan while fake-guitar is playing is that the fake-guitarist is playing something that a real-guitarist would never or could never play on a real guitar. So many times I've heard examples of fake-guitar that had stunningly good amp tones, with uber-realistic sound quality, played by someone who doesn't have the slightest clue about riffs/licks/standard guitar technique (and they can get pretty touchy when you tell them too). That's what takes the longest (I've still got a loooong way to go)-learning a bunch of real riffs and developing a feel for what is and isn't possible or desirable to play on a fretboard so that you have something a real guitarist would play in mind before you try to fake it on a keyboard -faking a realistic guitar part (ie something a guitarist could/would play) is quite difficult enough - faking a fake-sounding guitar part is not only a waste of time, but presents the added risk that the user will develop a hard-to-unlearn style of playing based on unrealistic riffs and rhythms. That's why I think that the lion's share of the work for most serious users (exceptions being guitarists who've lost fingers or developed arthritis etc..in other words, who know how guitar should be played) is to spend a LOT of time learning to read music/tablature, getting some books or finding material online, and learning lots of riffs and techniques, and of course learning how to transpose it all onto a keyboard or into a midi editor.
2- The other reason it's so hard is that after you've spent some time dealing with reason #1, you realize that a virtual instrument is going to need an awful lot of articulations (such as hammerons, pulloffs, pinch-harmonics, slides, the ability to unison-bend etc...). It's one thing to have a realistic guitar part in mind, but quite another to get that part out from your brain and through your speakers because having the right sequence of notes is only the start...some notes should be hammered-on from or slid to from the previous note, some sequences of notes should be entirely hammerons/pulloffs (trills), some notes (and chords) should be bridge-muted and so on and so forth. There are only a few apps (at least that I know of...I'm sure there are some I don't know about yet) with enough content that one could seriously consider creating highly realistic guitar parts. I'm a registered owner of Prominy's "SC", Musiclab's "RealStrat" and "RealGuitar" and a few others not worth mentioning.
First of all, for acoustic guitar, I can't imagine replacing Musiclab's RealGuitar. There are plenty of superb-sounding sample libraries for acoustic out there, but for such a small library (there are several guitars included such as steel, nylon, 12-string, doubled etc..., a few having "fingered" and "picked" options) the sound is very nice, and a pretty impressive amount of articulations and performance modes are presented in an intuitive user-interface. Not trying to pimp the product or anything, but after screwing around buying this and that over the years (just a hobby), I figured I'd throw in my two-cents. If you don't mind investing the time to learn the app, I believe that for acoustic guitar, RealGuitar is the most versatile and easy-to-use virtual instrument out there. But there's another bonus to learning RealGuitar if you're looking for a complete guitar solution (ie. Acoustic and Electric), and that is the fact that Musiclab's RealStrat and RealLPC both have the same basic interfaces. If you learn one of them, you can jump right into another with minimal learning-curve (the electrics are more feature-laden, but the basic concept is identical in all their guitar instruments).
Before I get into RealStrat and RealLPC, I'll mention that Prominy's "SC" (and presumably their "LPC") is probably the highest quality e-guitar sample-set in terms of sound and articulations. However, there are a few things I don't like about it. Firstly, being on a 32bit PC/OS, it uses a HUGE chunk of my ram with the "super-performance-multi". If that were my only beef, I would use it and get into the habit of "freezing" synths to conserve memory etc... However, there are two other things that bug me about it. Firstly, it's a tough sonofabitch to play. Though the end result in the midi editor can be amazing, roughing out and then finessing a guitar part with SC/LPC is too frustrating for me (being of limited talent/coordination/intelligence etc..). The other thing that bugs me about SC (and LPC) is that everything is sampled. Sounds like an odd thing to say; sampled sounds much better than synthesized right?...but there can be a drawback to this: Some of the samples, such as "slides" are obviously locked to a specific timing. This means that if you want a slide that is just a tad faster or slower than the samples you have, you're out of luck coz there's no easy way to change the speed of the slide (at least that I know of). Now Musiclab's Realstrat, on the other hand, has a library that is tiny by comparison, but uses a bit of sound and midi-trickery to accomplish some of the same things that require huge amounts of samples in SC to do. Again, slides for example: The slides in Realstrat have a adjustment-slider-control that controls the speed of the slide so that you can assign keyswitches that trigger slides at whatever speed you want. Do the slides sound as good as in SC? Probably not, since SC's slides are individually sampled, but you're not stuck with a limited selection of speeds.
Now before, I found it hard to recommend Realstrat over SC because, well, despite it being ingeniously programmed, I didn't like the sound. I find it way too twangy for my tastes, the bridge-mutes are too mushy, and I found it extremely difficult to get it sounding right for heavy-rock guitar parts. So I had one great-sounding app (SC) that's a royal pain in the ass to play and an easy/fun-to-play app (Realstrat) that sounds like crap (for my musical tastes at least...I've heard excellent work done by others with RealStrat).
Enter RealLPC: I had the pleasure of beta-testing Musiclab's latest offering "RealLPC". The interface, other than having a picture of a different guitar, is identical to that of RealStrat, the only real difference being the samples used. Wow! RealLPC sounds much, much better, especially when playing hard rock/heavy metal. Tighter/crisper bridge-mutes, much more enjoyable sound all across the virtual fretboard, and easy to amp (all my amp sims sound so much better with RealLPC than they did with Realstrat). My only gripe with LPC is that the pinch harmonics are mapped in such a way that playing one on a E-note results in a pinch-harmonic that's tuned to E, one played on a C-note produces a C-pinch-harmonic etc... That's not the way it works, and they did this because I guess a lot of users prefer it that way. They were mapped accurately in Realstrat, so hopefuly there'll be a patch with the option to have realistic pinch-harmonic mappings.
Anyways, long story short, if I could go back in time and avoid buying all the guitar-samplers/synths that I never use today, I'd save a pile of money and would only have Musiclab's RealGuitar and RealLPC (and maybe RealStrat for a bit of variety, but RealLPC blows RealStrat away). It will take some time and effort to become proficient with them, but they are relatively easy to use while still retaining the ability to create complex guitar parts that sound real. The newer RealLPC, while identical in usage to Realstrat, just sounds amazing by comparison. My beta version just expired(
), but I'm buying the commercial release as soon as I can.
The type of guitar instrument one should buy depends on several factors. Most important is how much effort one is willing to put into learning and using it. If you're not into spending hours/days/weeks/months developing the knowledge and skills required to simulate the guitar on a keyboard (or in a piano-roll), then an app with prerecorded passages is likely the way to go, preferably with the option to modify said passages (ie Ueberschall's "Liquid Guitar" looks like a fantastic guitar-instrument in that category).
For those who want to create realistic rhythm and lead electric guitar parts from scratch, there are a few options too, and I'll talk about the ones I like why I like them. Creating guitar parts from scratch can be very tricky, mainly for two reasons:
1-The most important reason highly realistic fake-guitar is so difficult to achieve is that the average guitar-synth/sampler-user doesn't know how to play a real guitar...otherwise they wouldn't be pissing around with a fake guitar...no? The most common reason for a listener to groan while fake-guitar is playing is that the fake-guitarist is playing something that a real-guitarist would never or could never play on a real guitar. So many times I've heard examples of fake-guitar that had stunningly good amp tones, with uber-realistic sound quality, played by someone who doesn't have the slightest clue about riffs/licks/standard guitar technique (and they can get pretty touchy when you tell them too). That's what takes the longest (I've still got a loooong way to go)-learning a bunch of real riffs and developing a feel for what is and isn't possible or desirable to play on a fretboard so that you have something a real guitarist would play in mind before you try to fake it on a keyboard -faking a realistic guitar part (ie something a guitarist could/would play) is quite difficult enough - faking a fake-sounding guitar part is not only a waste of time, but presents the added risk that the user will develop a hard-to-unlearn style of playing based on unrealistic riffs and rhythms. That's why I think that the lion's share of the work for most serious users (exceptions being guitarists who've lost fingers or developed arthritis etc..in other words, who know how guitar should be played) is to spend a LOT of time learning to read music/tablature, getting some books or finding material online, and learning lots of riffs and techniques, and of course learning how to transpose it all onto a keyboard or into a midi editor.
2- The other reason it's so hard is that after you've spent some time dealing with reason #1, you realize that a virtual instrument is going to need an awful lot of articulations (such as hammerons, pulloffs, pinch-harmonics, slides, the ability to unison-bend etc...). It's one thing to have a realistic guitar part in mind, but quite another to get that part out from your brain and through your speakers because having the right sequence of notes is only the start...some notes should be hammered-on from or slid to from the previous note, some sequences of notes should be entirely hammerons/pulloffs (trills), some notes (and chords) should be bridge-muted and so on and so forth. There are only a few apps (at least that I know of...I'm sure there are some I don't know about yet) with enough content that one could seriously consider creating highly realistic guitar parts. I'm a registered owner of Prominy's "SC", Musiclab's "RealStrat" and "RealGuitar" and a few others not worth mentioning.
First of all, for acoustic guitar, I can't imagine replacing Musiclab's RealGuitar. There are plenty of superb-sounding sample libraries for acoustic out there, but for such a small library (there are several guitars included such as steel, nylon, 12-string, doubled etc..., a few having "fingered" and "picked" options) the sound is very nice, and a pretty impressive amount of articulations and performance modes are presented in an intuitive user-interface. Not trying to pimp the product or anything, but after screwing around buying this and that over the years (just a hobby), I figured I'd throw in my two-cents. If you don't mind investing the time to learn the app, I believe that for acoustic guitar, RealGuitar is the most versatile and easy-to-use virtual instrument out there. But there's another bonus to learning RealGuitar if you're looking for a complete guitar solution (ie. Acoustic and Electric), and that is the fact that Musiclab's RealStrat and RealLPC both have the same basic interfaces. If you learn one of them, you can jump right into another with minimal learning-curve (the electrics are more feature-laden, but the basic concept is identical in all their guitar instruments).
Before I get into RealStrat and RealLPC, I'll mention that Prominy's "SC" (and presumably their "LPC") is probably the highest quality e-guitar sample-set in terms of sound and articulations. However, there are a few things I don't like about it. Firstly, being on a 32bit PC/OS, it uses a HUGE chunk of my ram with the "super-performance-multi". If that were my only beef, I would use it and get into the habit of "freezing" synths to conserve memory etc... However, there are two other things that bug me about it. Firstly, it's a tough sonofabitch to play. Though the end result in the midi editor can be amazing, roughing out and then finessing a guitar part with SC/LPC is too frustrating for me (being of limited talent/coordination/intelligence etc..). The other thing that bugs me about SC (and LPC) is that everything is sampled. Sounds like an odd thing to say; sampled sounds much better than synthesized right?...but there can be a drawback to this: Some of the samples, such as "slides" are obviously locked to a specific timing. This means that if you want a slide that is just a tad faster or slower than the samples you have, you're out of luck coz there's no easy way to change the speed of the slide (at least that I know of). Now Musiclab's Realstrat, on the other hand, has a library that is tiny by comparison, but uses a bit of sound and midi-trickery to accomplish some of the same things that require huge amounts of samples in SC to do. Again, slides for example: The slides in Realstrat have a adjustment-slider-control that controls the speed of the slide so that you can assign keyswitches that trigger slides at whatever speed you want. Do the slides sound as good as in SC? Probably not, since SC's slides are individually sampled, but you're not stuck with a limited selection of speeds.
Now before, I found it hard to recommend Realstrat over SC because, well, despite it being ingeniously programmed, I didn't like the sound. I find it way too twangy for my tastes, the bridge-mutes are too mushy, and I found it extremely difficult to get it sounding right for heavy-rock guitar parts. So I had one great-sounding app (SC) that's a royal pain in the ass to play and an easy/fun-to-play app (Realstrat) that sounds like crap (for my musical tastes at least...I've heard excellent work done by others with RealStrat).
Enter RealLPC: I had the pleasure of beta-testing Musiclab's latest offering "RealLPC". The interface, other than having a picture of a different guitar, is identical to that of RealStrat, the only real difference being the samples used. Wow! RealLPC sounds much, much better, especially when playing hard rock/heavy metal. Tighter/crisper bridge-mutes, much more enjoyable sound all across the virtual fretboard, and easy to amp (all my amp sims sound so much better with RealLPC than they did with Realstrat). My only gripe with LPC is that the pinch harmonics are mapped in such a way that playing one on a E-note results in a pinch-harmonic that's tuned to E, one played on a C-note produces a C-pinch-harmonic etc... That's not the way it works, and they did this because I guess a lot of users prefer it that way. They were mapped accurately in Realstrat, so hopefuly there'll be a patch with the option to have realistic pinch-harmonic mappings.
Anyways, long story short, if I could go back in time and avoid buying all the guitar-samplers/synths that I never use today, I'd save a pile of money and would only have Musiclab's RealGuitar and RealLPC (and maybe RealStrat for a bit of variety, but RealLPC blows RealStrat away). It will take some time and effort to become proficient with them, but they are relatively easy to use while still retaining the ability to create complex guitar parts that sound real. The newer RealLPC, while identical in usage to Realstrat, just sounds amazing by comparison. My beta version just expired(
), but I'm buying the commercial release as soon as I can.-
- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Let me tell you that I can totally relate with both mentioned points from your earlier post. Definitely fitting, ran into all these troubles myself. Though I did learn some basics while toying around with reFX Slayer back in the day and having two guitars myself. Not to mention that there's still the Tube to learn one or two things.
And even though a lot of samplepacks come with specific scripts now for chord play and the likes, Musiclab revolutionized that secion with their VSTi. You just play it with your keyboard, and you don't have to think which string corresponds to which key on the keyboard, or how many strings are actually forming a chord (D on keyboard has 3 keys, D on a guitar has 5 strings e.g.) - it's correctly interpreted.
On top of that, since RealStrat times (about a year after it was released), all VSTi from Musiclab got a MIDI out feature, which makes it possible for you to record what you played for third party samples. This was IMO the best implementation since RealGuitar 1 times - I could "abuse" RealGuitar for chord play, and use whatever sampleset I liked - without learning anything special. It's that simple, and sounds as good.
You can setup either the VSTi directly (not that simple and often not much satisfying), or like I did in the audio examples (linked below).
RealStrat: reduced the attack sound with a transient designer, then run the guitar through a bass exciter
RealLPC: nothing much needed, sometimes a bass exciter for kicks
Then you can go your usual way: compressor, wah pedal, distortion, whatever you feel like.
http://www.musiclab.com/community/forum ... php?t=2860
And even though a lot of samplepacks come with specific scripts now for chord play and the likes, Musiclab revolutionized that secion with their VSTi. You just play it with your keyboard, and you don't have to think which string corresponds to which key on the keyboard, or how many strings are actually forming a chord (D on keyboard has 3 keys, D on a guitar has 5 strings e.g.) - it's correctly interpreted.
Actually all three guitar VSTi work the same way, only that RealStrat and RealLPC feature an additional Keyswitch system for the solo mode. Since this was thought about, but never put through as of yet for RealGuitar, there's Toolbox existing.Epidural wrote: But there's another bonus to learning RealGuitar if you're looking for a complete guitar solution (ie. Acoustic and Electric), and that is the fact that Musiclab's RealStrat and RealLPC both have the same basic interfaces. If you learn one of them, you can jump right into another with minimal learning-curve (the electrics are more feature-laden, but the basic concept is identical in all their guitar instruments).
On top of that, since RealStrat times (about a year after it was released), all VSTi from Musiclab got a MIDI out feature, which makes it possible for you to record what you played for third party samples. This was IMO the best implementation since RealGuitar 1 times - I could "abuse" RealGuitar for chord play, and use whatever sampleset I liked - without learning anything special. It's that simple, and sounds as good.
It really depends on how you set it up. Pitchbending for example. If you pull a string on a guitar, you bend it "up" a semitone, not a whole chord. If you keep that in mind, you can program the pitchbend accordingly and even more, pitch down can work for greater slides for example for dive bombs... Granted, it's no instant gratification like with samples (which just sound a tad more realistic), and you need some work to pull it off. But with the possibility to setup everything individually, and if you know how to set it up, you can create some very, very realistic sounds.Epidural wrote: Do the slides sound as good as in SC? Probably not, since SC's slides are individually sampled, but you're not stuck with a limited selection of speeds.
If you know how eguitars work, it's understandable why that is the case, if not: RealStrat uses single coil pickups (which create a thin and more hard attacked sound) while RealLPC (Les Paul Custom) use humbucker coil pickups (which create an overall more soft and "warmer" sound).Epidural wrote: Enter RealLPC: ... Wow! RealLPC sounds much, much better, especially when playing hard rock/heavy metal. Tighter/crisper bridge-mutes, much more enjoyable sound all across the virtual fretboard, and easy to amp (all my amp sims sound so much better with RealLPC than they did with Realstrat).
You can setup either the VSTi directly (not that simple and often not much satisfying), or like I did in the audio examples (linked below).
RealStrat: reduced the attack sound with a transient designer, then run the guitar through a bass exciter
RealLPC: nothing much needed, sometimes a bass exciter for kicks
Then you can go your usual way: compressor, wah pedal, distortion, whatever you feel like.
http://www.musiclab.com/community/forum ... php?t=2860
Did you contact the developers about that already? I'm sure they can figure something out.Epidural wrote: My only gripe with LPC is that the pinch harmonics are mapped in such a way that playing one on a E-note results in a pinch-harmonic that's tuned to E, one played on a C-note produces a C-pinch-harmonic etc... That's not the way it works, and they did this because I guess a lot of users prefer it that way. They were mapped accurately in Realstrat, so hopefuly there'll be a patch with the option to have realistic pinch-harmonic mappings.
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- KVRian
- 1360 posts since 4 Aug, 2004 from Ain't tellin' ya...
Even after all of this discussion and reference to RealLPC and RealStrat/Guitar, I still think Efflam's virtual guitar (and bass) will blow everything else away.
Ben
Ben
Little Black Dog - 2008-Present
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- KVRer
- 13 posts since 3 Jan, 2010
Yup, I mentioned the PinchHarmonics issue to them. Sergey told me he'd consider including alternate mappings in a future update. Considering what an amazing job they did with this version, I feel it's a minor issue. Not bad though...considering all the things that program does, that one thing was the only real complaint I had with regards to RealLPC, and it's certainly no deal-breaker. I just got it in fact (woohoo!), and I just have to register it. With all three Musiclab guitar apps in my arsenal, my virtual-guitar needs are finally satisfied! They really hit a home-run with RealLPC.
I agree with you about the dive-bombs; I create pre-programmed slide keyswitches for standard slides at whatever speed/range I want, but for big slide-downs, I use the PB wheel. I've got "PB-Up" set to "Mono-bend" (works amazingly well for unison bends and such) with a range of 2 semitones (I prefer to play-by-feel for single-semitone bends so that they don't sound quite so perfect (fake), and "PB-down" is set to "Slide" with a range of 8 semitones. I find those big slide-downs actually sound excellent when done on the wheel.
RealStrat: reduced the attack sound with a transient designer, then run the guitar through a bass exciter
Hmm...I'll have to investigate to see what you mean. Thanks for the tip!
I agree with you about the dive-bombs; I create pre-programmed slide keyswitches for standard slides at whatever speed/range I want, but for big slide-downs, I use the PB wheel. I've got "PB-Up" set to "Mono-bend" (works amazingly well for unison bends and such) with a range of 2 semitones (I prefer to play-by-feel for single-semitone bends so that they don't sound quite so perfect (fake), and "PB-down" is set to "Slide" with a range of 8 semitones. I find those big slide-downs actually sound excellent when done on the wheel.
RealStrat: reduced the attack sound with a transient designer, then run the guitar through a bass exciter
Hmm...I'll have to investigate to see what you mean. Thanks for the tip!
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- KVRer
- 13 posts since 3 Jan, 2010
I've never heard of that one until now...not exactly in the market anymore, but I'm still curious to see what it's all about. It's got it's work cut out for it if it's going to compete with RealLPC though...same with the Bass too; I own Scarbee's "Black Bass" (Amped #2). The sound, articulations and ease of play make it the best bass I've ever tried, and the best bass sample-set I've ever heard. Needs Kontakt 2 or 3 though, which can make it pricey if one doesn't already own Kontakt, but it's amazingly inexpensive for what you get if you do own Kontakt. If I had to do it all over again, I'd still buy Kontakt just for Black Bass it's that good. Actually, all the Scarbee basses kick ass.benjamind wrote:Even after all of this discussion and reference to RealLPC and RealStrat/Guitar, I still think Efflam's virtual guitar (and bass) will blow everything else away.
Ben
I hope you're right though...competition always leads to bigger and better things!
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Personally I still think that Pettinhouse's DirectBass is unbeatable for what you pay for. And Andrea Pettinao is one of the rare people who goes beyond boundaries in terms of keyranges. But this is just my personal opinion.
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- KVRian
- 1480 posts since 14 Jun, 2003
excellent post epidural.
on windsynth i have a vl70-m "hendrix" patch thats physical modeling, and it has a lot of articulations and subtleties but its still very much a jan hammer approach which has nothing to do with a lot of what a guitarist has to do, and thats why i groaned recently when i was hired to sub for a guitar plyaer in a funk band.
i had subbed for their keyboard player a bunch of times but thats easier, i got by largely with b4.
its a combination of great acting and a great simulation, you have to portray a guitarist believably in your playing and the instrument has to respond believably.
i still think eventually it'll be physical modeling to the rescue but thatll require more powerful cpus to do the really really in depth modeling.
in the meantime i can again whine about how yamaha should do a vsti of the vl70-m!
on windsynth i have a vl70-m "hendrix" patch thats physical modeling, and it has a lot of articulations and subtleties but its still very much a jan hammer approach which has nothing to do with a lot of what a guitarist has to do, and thats why i groaned recently when i was hired to sub for a guitar plyaer in a funk band.
i had subbed for their keyboard player a bunch of times but thats easier, i got by largely with b4.
its a combination of great acting and a great simulation, you have to portray a guitarist believably in your playing and the instrument has to respond believably.
i still think eventually it'll be physical modeling to the rescue but thatll require more powerful cpus to do the really really in depth modeling.
in the meantime i can again whine about how yamaha should do a vsti of the vl70-m!
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- KVRian
- 1360 posts since 4 Aug, 2004 from Ain't tellin' ya...
I wouldn't say much about competition, if anything, because Efflam's virtual guitar has absolutely nothing to do with samples. That is why I am so interested in it.
It's based purely on physical string modeling and of course the modeling of electromagnetic pickups.
The bass apparently uses the exact same technology just with different gauge strings more suitable for a bass guitar.
As far as competition goes, I doubt there would be any once these are released. For the sake of simplicity, I'll call it the "Pianoteq" of the virtual guitar world and perhaps it's even much better than that.
Like everyone else here, I'd like to think that it'll be released soon. But I take everything with a very big pinch of salt.
Let's be realistic guys, we all know how things can change as they so often do.
So, for the meantime, unless he surprises us and releases them, just pretend that they don't exist at all. It's like me saying I can knock out Mike Tyson. Until I actually do that, are you going to believe me? Of course not.
Ben
It's based purely on physical string modeling and of course the modeling of electromagnetic pickups.
The bass apparently uses the exact same technology just with different gauge strings more suitable for a bass guitar.
As far as competition goes, I doubt there would be any once these are released. For the sake of simplicity, I'll call it the "Pianoteq" of the virtual guitar world and perhaps it's even much better than that.
Like everyone else here, I'd like to think that it'll be released soon. But I take everything with a very big pinch of salt.
Let's be realistic guys, we all know how things can change as they so often do.
So, for the meantime, unless he surprises us and releases them, just pretend that they don't exist at all. It's like me saying I can knock out Mike Tyson. Until I actually do that, are you going to believe me? Of course not.
Ben
Last edited by benjamind on Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Little Black Dog - 2008-Present
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- KVRer
- 13 posts since 3 Jan, 2010
Wow BenjaminD....you're really pumped up about Efflam's virtual guitar eh? I'm pretty suspicious about claims with regards to physical string-modeling; between having the same notes playing on different strings and frets (and the difference in tonal/resonance qualities between those same notes), the fret, release and pick noises, the different articulations (hammerons/pulloffs/slides/etc...), the harmonics (real and false), and even the more subtle sounds like the sound of the frets being slid over during slides, I find it hard to imagine any kind of physical modeling coming close to sample-based technology...but who knows...maybe this guy will pull it off.
Have you actually tested or seen this virtual guitar? You seem quite convinced about what it's going to be like.
I've tried searching for info on Efflam's virtual guitar and can't find a page for it. Do you have a link?
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- KVRian
- 1360 posts since 4 Aug, 2004 from Ain't tellin' ya...
For anyone who isn't familiar with the technology I am ranting about.
http://www.mokafix.com
In particular, check out the technology page. There will be clips which are examples of sounds produced by the string modeling. There are examples for the neck pickup, bridge pickup, bass sound, and even an acoustic example. There are also piano examples, and another clip demonstrating a reverb effect.
Whoever doesn't agree that those sounds are realistic either have hearing problems or have never touched a bass or a guitar and don't really know what they are supposed to sound like in a clean setting (meaning, direct sound - completely clean amplification of the pickups or string body and nothing else).
Some people claim it doesn't sound real because it doesn't have an amp chain after it to produce that "familiar" guitar/bass sound.
Clean DI guitar and bass actually DO sound like that. I say that because I've heard several guitars and basses DI to know that is basically what they sound like on Efflam's website.
And let's not get into a heated discussion about what sounds like this and what sounds like that. All guitars and basses have a UNIQUE sound. A sonic fingerprint. Efflam's virtual guitar has it's own fingerprint - but of course with all the benefits of physical modeling which means you have more control over that sonic fingerprint! In that case it would be even better than a real guitar. Who can argue with that point? Certainly not me, that's for sure.
Hell, you could get 1000 different guitars and basses and you would have a major headache trying to listen to all of them DI and trying to tell the differences in sonic fingerprints of all these instruments.
Perhaps Efflam could put those bridge/neck pickup and bass slur clips through an amp sim or perhaps through a real amp and mic'ed. I bet that would twist some necks!
And going by the sounds on his website, he will indeed pull it off. I think the biggest question is when.
Ben
http://www.mokafix.com
In particular, check out the technology page. There will be clips which are examples of sounds produced by the string modeling. There are examples for the neck pickup, bridge pickup, bass sound, and even an acoustic example. There are also piano examples, and another clip demonstrating a reverb effect.
Whoever doesn't agree that those sounds are realistic either have hearing problems or have never touched a bass or a guitar and don't really know what they are supposed to sound like in a clean setting (meaning, direct sound - completely clean amplification of the pickups or string body and nothing else).
Some people claim it doesn't sound real because it doesn't have an amp chain after it to produce that "familiar" guitar/bass sound.
Clean DI guitar and bass actually DO sound like that. I say that because I've heard several guitars and basses DI to know that is basically what they sound like on Efflam's website.
And let's not get into a heated discussion about what sounds like this and what sounds like that. All guitars and basses have a UNIQUE sound. A sonic fingerprint. Efflam's virtual guitar has it's own fingerprint - but of course with all the benefits of physical modeling which means you have more control over that sonic fingerprint! In that case it would be even better than a real guitar. Who can argue with that point? Certainly not me, that's for sure.
Hell, you could get 1000 different guitars and basses and you would have a major headache trying to listen to all of them DI and trying to tell the differences in sonic fingerprints of all these instruments.
Perhaps Efflam could put those bridge/neck pickup and bass slur clips through an amp sim or perhaps through a real amp and mic'ed. I bet that would twist some necks!
And going by the sounds on his website, he will indeed pull it off. I think the biggest question is when.
Ben
Little Black Dog - 2008-Present
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
The thing is, that Efflam hyped this project indeed since 2005. I've seen it, I've heard it, I couldn't touch it. But the main hype was "samples are sh*t, my tool is ultimately the only real approach", which is arrogant in my opinion.
Since then, since the early days he showed his bass demo with the possibility to exchange the pickups (and it indeed sounded different, reminded me of the Variax Technology from Line6), nothing more happened.
I don't care about a chorder brain, I have that covered. If it's really that great, I want to touch and play it - not seeing constant bragging about it how "great" it is, and how it will blow everything away. And I remember old Mokafix SynthEdit times - I'm sceptic. A technique like Pianoteq/TruePianos or even Synful (strings) good and fine, but even those tools are still approached with wariness - and it's IMO way too overpriced.
As long as it's not released, I say focus on what's available. And here, Musiclab is a firm that shouldn't be underestimated. And if I additionally look at Pettinhouse, Ive never spent my money more useful (and yes, I'm through with several other packs already, too).
Since then, since the early days he showed his bass demo with the possibility to exchange the pickups (and it indeed sounded different, reminded me of the Variax Technology from Line6), nothing more happened.
I don't care about a chorder brain, I have that covered. If it's really that great, I want to touch and play it - not seeing constant bragging about it how "great" it is, and how it will blow everything away. And I remember old Mokafix SynthEdit times - I'm sceptic. A technique like Pianoteq/TruePianos or even Synful (strings) good and fine, but even those tools are still approached with wariness - and it's IMO way too overpriced.
As long as it's not released, I say focus on what's available. And here, Musiclab is a firm that shouldn't be underestimated. And if I additionally look at Pettinhouse, Ive never spent my money more useful (and yes, I'm through with several other packs already, too).
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- KVRian
- 1360 posts since 4 Aug, 2004 from Ain't tellin' ya...
Oh it's way better than the previous version.
You must be thinking about 2007.
He made some very big changes to the string modeling engine in 2008.
Yes, almost 2 years ago. Obviously, some things have been done to improve it even further.
Ben
You must be thinking about 2007.
He made some very big changes to the string modeling engine in 2008.
Yes, almost 2 years ago. Obviously, some things have been done to improve it even further.
Ben
Little Black Dog - 2008-Present
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Good for you, but I'd like to make my own experiences and judgements, thank you.
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- KVRer
- 13 posts since 3 Jan, 2010
Agreed.
Believe it or not Benjamin, some of us have heard DI guitars. I had an old strat when I was young, and had a roommate who played guitar. In fact, both the Musiclab e-guitars and Prominy SC are recorded DI, so you're not the only one here who's heard clean guitars and who doesn't have hearing problems. If you're basing all your hype on the sound files available on that website, good luck with that! How you figure having lots of control over a modelled guitar that doesn't sound like any other guitar makes it better than a real guitar is beyond me.
I wanted a Les Paul sound, so I got a Les Paul sample-player...mission accomplished. I'm not really interested in a highly realistic physically modelled guitar with a unique "sonic fingerprint" that doesn't sound like any real guitar out there. And if Efflam can physically model picking noises/release noises, scrapes, palm mutes, pinch harmonics, real harmonics and all the other sounds that help make a sampled guitar sound real, and do so convincingly, I'll eat my hat.
Believe it or not Benjamin, some of us have heard DI guitars. I had an old strat when I was young, and had a roommate who played guitar. In fact, both the Musiclab e-guitars and Prominy SC are recorded DI, so you're not the only one here who's heard clean guitars and who doesn't have hearing problems. If you're basing all your hype on the sound files available on that website, good luck with that! How you figure having lots of control over a modelled guitar that doesn't sound like any other guitar makes it better than a real guitar is beyond me.
I wanted a Les Paul sound, so I got a Les Paul sample-player...mission accomplished. I'm not really interested in a highly realistic physically modelled guitar with a unique "sonic fingerprint" that doesn't sound like any real guitar out there. And if Efflam can physically model picking noises/release noises, scrapes, palm mutes, pinch harmonics, real harmonics and all the other sounds that help make a sampled guitar sound real, and do so convincingly, I'll eat my hat.