Ask me anything Music Theory and I'll answer

[unpeople]

I've recently learnt about a few "out of key" chords I can use to spice up my major scale chord sequences. These being ♭VII, ♭VI, and ♭III. I was wondering if you could explain to me why these sound "right", and do you know of any other chords that I can add to my major scale toolbox?

Sorry to butt in... just thought I'd throw in my 2¢:

Those chords work when played over the tonic because they outline various chord extensions to the tonic triad. The notes of the ♭VII triad, for example, are also the 7th, 9th, and 11th of the tonic, outlining a 7 9 sus chord. In the case of the ♭III triad played over the tonic triad, you'd form a 7 #9 chord; and the ♭VI triad over the tonic triad would form a #9 ♭13.

This explanation is really jazz oriented, but these chords work really well in pop music as well. The ♭VII, ♭VI, and ♭III are so called 'moll-dur' chords. If you're for example using a C major chord progression, you can add chords from the C minor (which in turn is equivalent to Eb major) progression to spice things up a little. Borrowing chords from the minor scale progression is called moll-dur, the other way around is called dur-moll, which is used less. This technique is quite often used in popular music. One of the many examples: the bridge of bryan adams "everything I do I do it for you" has the really disctinctive moll dur sound.

Neat. I hadn't heard the "moll-dur/dur-moll" nomenclature before. However, I did happen to hear an example of dur-moll yesterday: the bridge of Average White Band's version of School Boy Crush is in G minor, but the rhythm guitar player is adding some tasty G7s in the background. Nice to be able to give that a name.

[echomusic]

Well I don't know if that's specific enough but I've been thinking a lot about modulation in composition, as in changing scales within a song. I write mostly pop music (in its funk and soul variants). When I modulate I tend to go "by the ear" but it's often a hit and miss affair.

What would you say are the best ways and directions for modulation in the pop genre? And how to make it "seamless"? Sting is a master of the genre for instance IMO.

How to modulate from a I IV V sequence for instance, and back?

I'm especially interested in modulations that sound acceptable in pop, i.e. not too "jazzy".


I vaguely grasp it may have something to do with the circles of fifths and/or fourths but I'm still a little hazy about it.

Anyway it's very generous of you to be here and offer help.

vim

Not sure how specific you can get. You have different types of modulation (key changes). You have chromatic, enharmonic, sequential, etc. If you're transitions don't deviate too radically from from the tonal then it's going to be seamless. For example if you're playing in the key of Bb and change up to c minor, or something similar. Arrangements aren't an exact science.

[echomusic]

I've recently learnt about a few "out of key" chords I can use to spice up my major scale chord sequences. These being ♭VII, ♭VI, and ♭III. I was wondering if you could explain to me why these sound "right", and do you know of any other chords that I can add to my major scale toolbox?

Sorry to butt in... just thought I'd throw in my 2¢:

Those chords work when played over the tonic because they outline various chord extensions to the tonic triad. The notes of the ♭VII triad, for example, are also the 7th, 9th, and 11th of the tonic, outlining a 7 9 sus chord. In the case of the ♭III triad played over the tonic triad, you'd form a 7 #9 chord; and the ♭VI triad over the tonic triad would form a #9 ♭13.

This explanation is really jazz oriented, but these chords work really well in pop music as well. The ♭VII, ♭VI, and ♭III are so called 'moll-dur' chords. If you're for example using a C major chord progression, you can add chords from the C minor (which in turn is equivalent to Eb major) progression to spice things up a little. Borrowing chords from the minor scale progression is called moll-dur, the other way around is called dur-moll, which is used less. This technique is quite often used in popular music. One of the many examples: the bridge of bryan adams "everything I do I do it for you" has the really disctinctive moll dur sound.

Neat. I hadn't heard the "moll-dur/dur-moll" nomenclature before. However, I did happen to hear an example of dur-moll yesterday: the bridge of Average White Band's version of School Boy Crush is in G minor, but the rhythm guitar player is adding some tasty G7s in the background. Nice to be able to give that a name.

The transition from major to minor is 2 steps down for in-octave transitions, and 5 steps up for second octave transitions, each with a half-step variation ascending.

C Major 5 steps up is a minor, G Major -> e minor, and so on. If you were playing in C Major, c minor is a very dramatic change! From all naturals to three flats. Yikes. I'm pitch perfect and just thinking about that makes my ears hurt.

[echomusic]

Hi Echomusic,

What a great idea! I read through the thread and have one question regarding the Dorian, Lydian, etc scales. The Dorian scale (pianowise) is (as far as I recollect from my music theory classes) simply the white keys, but starting from D instead of A (for A minor) or C (for C Major). So far so good. But what would the I-IV-V chords be in Dorian?

Music theory-wise, would I start with D-F#-A, G-B-D, and A-C#-E and pretend that nothing's funky is going on, or should I stick to the true scale and instead use D-F-A, G-B-D, and A-C-E? In Dorian, this will sound good (and I have composed a song using these chords with D as the root), but what about say the scale starting on B (or "H")? Would such a chord progression become B-D-F, E-G-B, F-A-C?

(I realise this question might be a bit "academic", as these scales are older than the triad scheme, so perhaps not all of the scales actually have a triad-ish way of functioning.)

Warm regards from Sweden,

SparkySpark

When I explained it, it was more of a general overview. The functions are a bit different when applied to style of music. You'll have to be a bit more specific. We talking Jazz here? Because it's a bit different for Jazz.

[ThomasKoot]

The transition from major to minor is 2 steps down for in-octave transitions, and 5 steps up for second octave transitions, each with a half-step variation ascending.

C Major 5 steps up is a minor, G Major -> e minor, and so on. If you were playing in C Major, c minor is a very dramatic change! From all naturals to three flats. Yikes. I'm pitch perfect and just thinking about that makes my ears hurt.

What do you mean with the first part of your answer?

Playing the C major key and then changing to the C minor (or Eb major) key is very common. When you're playing a C major progression you can perfectly get away with playing an Bb, Ab or Eb major, just try it out it won't sound horrible. Like i said before there are so many cheesy poptunes that use these kinds of transitions so there is really nothing funky to it. [/quote]

[ThomasKoot]

Hi Echomusic,

What a great idea! I read through the thread and have one question regarding the Dorian, Lydian, etc scales. The Dorian scale (pianowise) is (as far as I recollect from my music theory classes) simply the white keys, but starting from D instead of A (for A minor) or C (for C Major). So far so good. But what would the I-IV-V chords be in Dorian?

Music theory-wise, would I start with D-F#-A, G-B-D, and A-C#-E and pretend that nothing's funky is going on, or should I stick to the true scale and instead use D-F-A, G-B-D, and A-C-E? In Dorian, this will sound good (and I have composed a song using these chords with D as the root), but what about say the scale starting on B (or "H")? Would such a chord progression become B-D-F, E-G-B, F-A-C?

(I realise this question might be a bit "academic", as these scales are older than the triad scheme, so perhaps not all of the scales actually have a triad-ish way of functioning.)

Warm regards from Sweden,

SparkySpark

Playing in D dorian is, from a pragmatic point of view, the same as playing in C ionian (major), you'll play the same notes. The difference is that the musical emphasis will be on D, so you might call the D the 1. This difference is quite important, C major will be the one music theory wise, D minor will be the one from a musical standpoint.

You might recall that in C major you have the following chords: Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, G7, Amin and Bdim (half dim actually). So if you're looking for a I-IV-V progression in D dorian, you'll have to find the notes corresponding to the 1st 4th and 5th step, and then choose the appropriate chords from the C major scale progression which yields -> I = Dmin, IV = G7 and V = A min.

There are two important side notes here, first of all, if a chord is minor you'll denote it with minor characters so Dmin = i and Amin is v. Second, the dominant chord on the 5th step in a scale progression is a strong indicator for the root key. Play a G7 chord and it feels like it should resolve to C major. So when playing this i - IV - vi progression, playing an A7 instead of Amin will put more emphasis on D as a root note, if you don't, C will still feel like the root note of your progression. This is not necessarily bad, but ok, we're talking pure theory here.

To sum up my point, the d dorian scale progression is the same as the c major scale progression and they use the same chords. You can alter step v in a dorian progression to a dominant chord for a more musical progression.

[TankEyes]

I've recently learnt about a few "out of key" chords I can use to spice up my major scale chord sequences. These being ♭VII, ♭VI, and ♭III. I was wondering if you could explain to me why these sound "right", and do you know of any other chords that I can add to my major scale toolbox?

Sorry to butt in... just thought I'd throw in my 2¢:

Those chords work when played over the tonic because they outline various chord extensions to the tonic triad. The notes of the ♭VII triad, for example, are also the 7th, 9th, and 11th of the tonic, outlining a 7 9 sus chord. In the case of the ♭III triad played over the tonic triad, you'd form a 7 #9 chord; and the ♭VI triad over the tonic triad would form a #9 ♭13.

This explanation is really jazz oriented, but these chords work really well in pop music as well. The ♭VII, ♭VI, and ♭III are so called 'moll-dur' chords. If you're for example using a C major chord progression, you can add chords from the C minor (which in turn is equivalent to Eb major) progression to spice things up a little. Borrowing chords from the minor scale progression is called moll-dur, the other way around is called dur-moll, which is used less. This technique is quite often used in popular music. One of the many examples: the bridge of bryan adams "everything I do I do it for you" has the really disctinctive moll dur sound.

Neat. I hadn't heard the "moll-dur/dur-moll" nomenclature before. However, I did happen to hear an example of dur-moll yesterday: the bridge of Average White Band's version of School Boy Crush is in G minor, but the rhythm guitar player is adding some tasty G7s in the background. Nice to be able to give that a name.

The transition from major to minor is 2 steps down for in-octave transitions, and 5 steps up for second octave transitions, each with a half-step variation ascending.

C Major 5 steps up is a minor, G Major -> e minor, and so on. If you were playing in C Major, c minor is a very dramatic change! From all naturals to three flats. Yikes. I'm pitch perfect and just thinking about that makes my ears hurt.

LOL.

Awesome answers, thanks peeps. I was hoping there was some kinda name for it.

[echomusic]

The transition from major to minor is 2 steps down for in-octave transitions, and 5 steps up for second octave transitions, each with a half-step variation ascending.

C Major 5 steps up is a minor, G Major -> e minor, and so on. If you were playing in C Major, c minor is a very dramatic change! From all naturals to three flats. Yikes. I'm pitch perfect and just thinking about that makes my ears hurt.

What do you mean with the first part of your answer?

Playing the C major key and then changing to the C minor (or Eb major) key is very common. When you're playing a C major progression you can perfectly get away with playing an Bb, Ab or Eb major, just try it out it won't sound horrible. Like i said before there are so many cheesy poptunes that use these kinds of transitions so there is really nothing funky to it.

[/quote]

The melodic changes from a Major to minor are whole steps. 5 up for the second octave, 2 down for the same octave. Here's a quick table with a few, (what I call the common 6)

C Major => a minor
G Major => e minor
D Major => b minor
F Major => d minor
Bb Major => g minor
Eb Major => c minor

My point was that it's a horrible change to drop in progression changes as a solo when everyone else is staying in key. Have you heard a C Major with those progressions on top at the same time? I say it again... Yikes.

[ThomasKoot]

My point was that it's a horrible change to drop in progression changes as a solo when everyone else is staying in key. Have you heard a C Major with those progressions on top at the same time? I say it again... Yikes.

Yeah I totally agree on that, but mixing up chords from the major and minor scale progression on after the other is no problem (assuming off course that the entire band plays the same progression).

[Gamma-UT]

The transition from major to minor is 2 steps down for in-octave transitions, and 5 steps up for second octave transitions, each with a half-step variation ascending.

C Major 5 steps up is a minor, G Major -> e minor, and so on. If you were playing in C Major, c minor is a very dramatic change! From all naturals to three flats. Yikes. I'm pitch perfect and just thinking about that makes my ears hurt.

What do you mean with the first part of your answer?

Playing the C major key and then changing to the C minor (or Eb major) key is very common. When you're playing a C major progression you can perfectly get away with playing an Bb, Ab or Eb major, just try it out it won't sound horrible. Like i said before there are so many cheesy poptunes that use these kinds of transitions so there is really nothing funky to it.

The melodic changes from a Major to minor are whole steps. 5 up for the second octave, 2 down for the same octave. Here's a quick table with a few, (what I call the common 6)

C Major => a minor
G Major => e minor
D Major => b minor
F Major => d minor
Bb Major => g minor
Eb Major => c minor

My point was that it's a horrible change to drop in progression changes as a solo when everyone else is staying in key. Have you heard a C Major with those progressions on top at the same time? I say it again... Yikes.

I don't think Thomas is suggesting a iii and bIII play at the same time, but that a shift from a chord in C Maj to one 'borrowed' from C minor is very common. The bVI picked up the nickname 'Peggy Sue chord' from one or two writers because of its pervasiveness. Classical composers did mode shifts like this back as far as...well as far as classical music goes because a similar trick is occasionally used in some plainchart music (it turns up a few times in Gradus ad Parnassum).

[TankEyes]

{edit]

[SparkySpark]

Playing in D dorian is, from a pragmatic point of view, the same as playing in C ionian (major), you'll play the same notes. The difference is that the musical emphasis will be on D, so you might call the D the 1. This difference is quite important, C major will be the one music theory wise, D minor will be the one from a musical standpoint.

You might recall that in C major you have the following chords: Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, G7, Amin and Bdim (half dim actually). So if you're looking for a I-IV-V progression in D dorian, you'll have to find the notes corresponding to the 1st 4th and 5th step, and then choose the appropriate chords from the C major scale progression which yields -> I = Dmin, IV = G7 and V = A min.

There are two important side notes here, first of all, if a chord is minor you'll denote it with minor characters so Dmin = i and Amin is v. Second, the dominant chord on the 5th step in a scale progression is a strong indicator for the root key. Play a G7 chord and it feels like it should resolve to C major. So when playing this i - IV - vi progression, playing an A7 instead of Amin will put more emphasis on D as a root note, if you don't, C will still feel like the root note of your progression. This is not necessarily bad, but ok, we're talking pure theory here.

To sum up my point, the d dorian scale progression is the same as the c major scale progression and they use the same chords. You can alter step v in a dorian progression to a dominant chord for a more musical progression.

Thomas and Dexter,

Thanks a lot for the clarification! (No, I don't do much jazz unfortunately.) That's what I suspected then... I think...

/Sp-Sp

[Gamma-UT]

@TankEyes: on your question about bIII and bVI, do a search on 'chromatic mediant'. Or go here for more: http://smu.edu/totw/chromat.htm (scroll down a bit for the bIII etc but there are some other tips in here).

I'd also suggest looking into secondary dominants as other ways to buff up a conventional chord progression.

[TankEyes]

Secondary dominants. That's pretty cool. Looking over my experiments with the "moll-dur" I've often chosen a 5th or 4th root movement after the moll-dur chords. Interesting.

On the chromatic tip, I've found I can play a chord for each note of the 12 tone scale and it sounds "right" in a major tonality. It goes like this.

I, ♭ii(dim), ii, ♭III, iii, IV, ♭V, V, ♭VI, iv, ♭VII, VII (or vii dim)

Which is basically all the borrowed chords plus VII, ♭V, and ♭ii(dim).

The ♭V sounds a bit strange (having a tritone root and 3 flat notes!) but it works great as a passing chord from IV to V or vice versa.

(edit: we can add the augmented 6th chord to this set too)

[memyselfandus]

Hmm...explain the origins and significance of the differences between the french, german, italian, and swiss augmented 6th chords. How are they constructed? How do they each resolve? How does the voice leading work for each assuming you are using the approach of the common practice period? How can they be used as a pivot chord for modulation and within what key relationships can modulation occur?