cab sim development

[guitarzan]

Well, I still did not read the whole thread but related to the title, I'm an old user of AT2 and new AT3, GR2,3, and 4 and almost all the other commercial or free amp sims, but I always had problems with the Cab section, I don't know how to describe it as I'm not a pro sound engineer, but the cab section in almost all the convolution based cab sims feels a bit flat and lifeless, whatever I did, I still can not get rid of that lifeless boxy feeling, it seems I have this problem with almost all amp sims as if I'm playing through a very thin box without that beef I usually can feel with real cabs, I even have this problem with Altiverb Reverb as well, the reverb it produce is great except it lacks that lifeless problem as well, so it seems the problem is with the convolution technology itself as it obviously can not capture "something" in the line. But after I discovered Vandal almost 2 months ago, I was shocked to be honest as it's cab section is not based on convolution, its completely simulated mathematically and the result is wonderful and very close to the real cabs I own with amazing low cpu use as well with too many options to tweak the cam section as well, I just wanted to share my feeling about it, I like to know your opinion about this as well if any of you been playing with Vandal.

Cheers

I need to fix my audio interface this weekend (I think the Fire Wire connector just needs to be re-soldered) and then I will try Mercuriall Cab and I think I will try Vandal also. Reading about Vandal, it does seem to display the rare courage of having an original design, and maybe pure cab modeling was never given enough of a chance. I still think a hybrid method using static IRs and dynamic processing will end up having the most detailed results, but I don't know that for a fact.

[guitarzan]

The motional impedance of an electro-dynamic loudspeaker: a 1979 Acoustical Society of America abstract if anyone is interested.

Thanks, downloaded for reading in a quiet moment.
Cheers,
susiwong

I thought there was more to it, but that short abstract on the web page is all there is to it. The full text version just covers a bunch of other subjects, but no more info on motional impedance

I'm starting to think implied added complexity by injecting some randomness (I have some ideas for this) might be close enough for rock and roll.

[guitarzan]

Here is some must read material from the Vandal dev blog:

Simulating speakers & cabinets - part I
Simulating speakers & cabinets - part II

One of the most interesting things is the use of what amounts to reverb to model the cabinets. I remember reading something about that in one of the KVR Vandal threads too. This makes sense to me....have you ever noticed that hard driven amps sometimes sound like they have some chorus or phaser on them, even when they are dry?

[Ken McLaren]

susi, I have enjoyed every conversation we have ever had, and I always listen with keen interest to your insights. I think what you have to say is important and highlights some of the more troublesome aspects that developers never really get a grip on, me included. So, keep talking and I'll keep listening..

Silenceborn, Yep, I am a very big supporter of modeled cabs, Sascha, and Vandal. Before we had our convolution cabs in place, way back in the DIG 1.03 days we did nothing but modeled cabs based on a 2 pole LP Filter. The Cab enhancer is also based on the same principles, except it has a little extra technology called EAR, that I think is on the right track, but not quite there yet. EAR is an attempt at adding the extra dynamics that seems to get lost in convolution alone, thats why you place it after your convolution cabs.

Guitarzan...Yep thats exactly what I mean, you need to take into account the room as well...
KM

[Silenceborn]

Thank you all for the responses, this subject is so interesting for me as it can make a bridge between developers and musicians to make even better cab sim and generally better amp sims, though I'm not a pro sound engineer and I might not be able to understand all you talking about here in detail, as I'm a guitar player/song writer, but I'm all ears to learn more in this area from you people and developers. Because whatever you people do with your software can obviously affect the result of our production and who knows, it might even influence us in some part. So good luck and keep up the great job and great thread.


Cheers

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Post purely so i get in on this one, sorry i having nothing to add atm. need to read it through when i have time. Man i need more 'me' time

All the best

Dean/Nekro

Oh and thank you all for the links to the various reading material/how bloody rude of me not to say so as thats the reason i posted = my bad myself for that. Some stella reading

[Ken McLaren]

Thanks Silence...Developers should be all ears too. I can't and won't speak for anyone else, but, we think we know what people want, and for the most part are probably pretty close. But there is always that percentage of people that your plug just does not reach. Threads like this can help to get a better handle on where you fall short..So, as always, I am all ears too..

Dean its good to see you here, judging from our last conversations I know you'll have some insights that others may not....
KM

[guitarzan]

Guitarzan...Yep thats exactly what I mean, you need to take into account the room as well...
KM

No doubt about that Ken, but this is something different - Vandal uses reverb to model the cab itself - not the speaker, it models that separately. Makes sense, really, odd as it seems at first.

[Ken McLaren]

Yeah I should read that...lol...busted..
KM

[guitarzan]

[TangBang21]

Anyone else here using Liquidsonics Reverberate for IR's? It runs up to 4 IR's simultaneously in 'real time' (well, Reaper does not report any additional samples being used by it but I have not clocked it to a blank track to measure any delay). I've been using it with the Recabinet Ghandi (Mesa) Impulses for about 6 months now and find myself going to it again and again.

I never cared for the speaker sims in any of the flavors of Amplitude for high gain sounds, they always either sound too fizzy and post-eq doesn't help much or they are just plain ol' dead sounding. GR3 and especially GR4 are a little better IMO, but I find that most often I just go to IRs.

Has anyone talked about RIR in Revalver MKIII? I don't care much for the Cone Distortion and Crunch control sounds, but it might be a good start. I do hope this is refined for MK IV.?.



(Not trying to go off topic on these last two things, but I had a couple of thoughts while reading most of the posts.)

Regarding Softube Acoustic Feedback... sounds totally 'fake' to me if it is turned up too much but almost correct @ lower levels. I could never get the right amount of feedback without crossing over to the fake-sounding side. If I want some feedback I will often send an ampsim signal (sans IR) to the CD/MP3 in on my Spider III amp while recording it clean. I imagine most any amp would work ok, I only own this little POS Line6 combo.

McFly - When you mention trying to get feedback with headphones on, Open vs Closed back headphone styles might be the differce... maybe?

Anywho, post #1 for me, please be kind.




Home Studio User / All Around Geek - TB21

[Ken McLaren]

Tang...I'm not actually going to work on Feedback with head phones any longer, I actually did not work that much on it in the first place. However, I am working on Feedback from our amp sims with open speakers. Either way it all boils down to volume level at some point. I have also found that using the IR cabinets in Shred 1.5x as opposed to the modeled cabs in it yields a better result in terms of feedback intensity and quickness to start. Thats no doubt down to the speaker modeling technique, I think the ones in Vandal would probably yield a better result than our modeled cabs do...

As far as headphones, yeah I think open back would yield a better result no doubt, But I still have not been able to do it with either...I have the hearing loss to prove it..:)haha

KM

[guitarzan]

Has anyone talked about RIR in Revalver MKIII? I don't care much for the Cone Distortion and Crunch control sounds, but it might be a good start. I do hope this is refined for MK IV.?.

Hi TangBang21, yeah, I really liked the direction ReValver took with RIR - static IRs with dynamic processing, but I too would like to see it developed much further. In fact, ReValver and RIR have been my favorite amp/cab sim so far, but the way ReValver's development came to an abrupt halt after the purchase of Alien Connections by Peavey has taxed my patience and it's one of the reasons I wanted to see a thread like this, get some new ideas flowing, maybe advance the cause .

Regarding Softube Acoustic Feedback... sounds totally 'fake' to me if it is turned up too much but almost correct @ lower levels. I could never get the right amount of feedback without crossing over to the fake-sounding side. If I want some feedback I will often send an ampsim signal (sans IR) to the CD/MP3 in on my Spider III amp while recording it clean. I imagine most any amp would work ok, I only own this little POS Line6 combo.

I still haven't tried SofTube's feedback thing, but it does seem like the type of deal that would work best in moderation - I just think a touch of simulated feedback would be nice for any cab sim, just to create the sense that the guitar was in the same environment as the amp - more of a "feel" thing than an overt effect.

I have a Fernandes guitar with the Sustainer system and that works pretty good - but it only works with the bridge pickup and I don't like that at all. Sustainiac makes a model that clamps onto the headstock and uses a silent transducer to vibrate the neck - I think that would be much more realistic. You can also try a cheap DIY version of this by splitting you guitar's output and running one leg to a little mini pocket amp, like the Smokey Amp from Zinky Electronics, and then strap that onto your headstock with rubber bands or whatever - you might want to make a gasket out of cardboard or something so it doesn't scratch up your guitar. Your way using your Spider III amp probably works as well or better than that, though.

Seems like you could have something like the Sustainiac tranducer deal that would work with a proximity sensor somehow, so you could control the feedback in a more natural way by repositioning the guitar...but that's a another mad science project....

[TangBang21]

Just curious about Nebula 3, I think that 3 is relatively new. I seem to remember reading some rave reviews about cab simulation using this plugin in another forum (Andy Sneap, I think?).

I've been considering yet another purchase but will need to read more about it first before plunking down my nickles

McFly - I hear you about hearing loss... or not.
(I know, bad pun )

guitarazan - I've read a little about DIY E-Bows and it looks like it gets complicated fast in the signal processing between pickup and the output/exciter coil! Although, something about mad scientist projects are cool.

[guitarzan]

Just curious about Nebula 3, I think that 3 is relatively new. I seem to remember reading some rave reviews about cab simulation using this plugin in another forum (Andy Sneap, I think?).

I need to be updated on the progress of Nebula, too. The minute I first read about Nebula I thought about guitar cabs and that was the future of cab sims for sure, but then further details that it couldn't really capture stuff like distortion and compression artifacts made me rethink that. I believe those things were thought to be possible, though, and maybe it has progressed now. Maybe a Nebula user will pop in and let us know what's up there if we're lucky.

EDIT: This cab sim is supposed to work using a method similar to Nebula - I wanted to try it this weekend, but I forgot about it being Memorial Day weekend, so it doesn't look like I'll get a chance:

Speaking of cabs, and a high quality single cab at that, this Russian dev RoxOlder just released a free high quality Marshall cab plugin possibly based on the voltera kerneling convolution method in a single plugin DLL.

http://mercuriall.iks.ru/ (in Russian)

the google English translated site
http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

And the download link
http://mercuriall.iks.ru/files/MercuriallCab.zip

He modeled a Marshall AVT50X

The thread about it
http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

I was just playing on it for a few hours, and trying a few different sims with it, other than the recommended settings/sims. Sounds really good.