Chords that fit together (chord progressions)

[jancivil]

By your logic you wouldn't teach basic arithmetic before geometry before trig
"1+2=3... one what? three what? meaningless facts out of context"
"find the volume of a trapezoidal prism... now where would you EVER encounter that in the real world??? pointless."

that is a misconstruction of what I did and contains a problem of logic. SF stated that '[chromatic] cycle of fifths is only really useful for keeping track of keys' and you agreed/clarified. I do not take that as A Fact. It is not tantamount to that arithemetical solution.

[jancivil]

if you look at the original post, we're trying to help a beginner who doesn't understand the terms "dominant", or "cadence"

But who knows the cycle of fifths without looking and found it didn't make for interest per se.

When you're trying to teach a beginner it can be useful to break down concepts, so that you don't confuse and frustrate the student by presenting big-picture concepts too soon.

So we should follow charts and confuse the trees for the forest at first? is 'diatonic cycle, not chromatic cycle' a big picture kind of concept?

[jancivil]

A fairly common chord progression used for over 40 years and all songs have a different melody.

which bears out my entire point. It fails to do what you wanted it to, to make melody something you fit to chords, which would mean that that chord progression is the primary thing.

There is no reason given for why "I" can go to anything but you have a list of things other Roman Numerals can go to. I'm criticizing that kind of approach in general. I don't think I could use that.
'It's a good idea to put ii in second inversion, to put V in first inversion.' I did not know that. There are situations where it won't be the best and that's a true statement.

As far as correcting me on what to say to the OP or a beginner, I think that lists of phenomena would overwhelm me if I was starting.

[sjm]

I'm always coming to the problem that I don't know where to go from each chord.

I didn't mean to start a big debate here when mentioning the circle of fifths. I just figured that with the above quote, wittering on about in depth music theory was not going to help much. If you don't know you can go from F to C who cares about 13th chords?

Apparently the OP does know, in which case try out some more interesting chords bearing in mind that some notes are more dissonant than others - and not just when played together, but also played in succession. Going from F# major to C major often sounds unpleasant. However the Beatles pull it off quite nicely in Sexy Sadie, and Beck's motherf**ker consists of only these two chords ad infinitum (although hardly a "pleasant" song).

[gambaytheunspoken]

Look at where your fingers are placed on the keyboard, doesn't matter where. Play any three note chord. Now allow your fingers to walk or wander to wherever you wish but try and use the previous note played by your third finger in your new chord. If it sounds good to your ears, repeat the process and keep going until you feel like stopping. More than likely you've completed a lovely little progression that you can now tweak to your heart's desire by adding little frills (extra notes) on top to make what you play sound more interesting. These would be your extended chords. Once you've done this, it wouldn't hurt to try and analyse what you've done in order to understand why certain choices you've made sound better or more interesting than others. Youtube is a wonderful companion.

Ciao!

[flowdesigner]

Once you're familiar, start "enhancing" these chords. You may want to start with 7ths.
Imaj7-IVmaj7-V7-Imaj7
Or add 9ths as well.
Imaj9-IVmaj9-V9-Imaj9

Etc.

Use the same progression in minor.
Imin-IVmin-Vmin-Imin
Cmin-Fmin-Gmin-Cmin
Now replace the Gmin with a G(7). Probably the key thing to make this progression more plausible.
Imin-IVmin-V-Imin
Cmin-Fmin-G-Cmin
Add 7ths.
Imin7-IVmin7-V7-Imin7
Cmin7-Fmin7-G7-Cmin7

Etc...

Replace the IV chord by the II chord.
In major (with 7ths applied already):
Imaj7-IImin7-V7-Imaj7
Cmaj7-Dmin7-G7-Cmaj7

In minor:
Imin7-IImin7/b5-V7-Imin7
Cmin7-Dmin7/b5-G7-Cmin7

Another typical basic progression would be I-VI-II-V, doesn't exactly exist often for minor.
Imaj7-IVmin7-IImin7-V7
Cmaj7-Amin7-Dmin7-G7

Again, with all these, try to add option notes (9ths, 11ths, 13ths). You may want to look up a list of a) which options notes are suitable and b) how to "generate" them on the instrument (just adding them will not do the job, they usually replace one of the other notes, such as "13th for 5th").

Have a look at any chord movements that go up a fourth (or fall down a fifth, same result). You can often replace the starting chord (or add another one inbetween) by a dominant 7th variation.
In the last example, this would typically be done to the Amin7, which would then become A7. It could as well be done to the Dmin7.

Explore all the options to move up a fourth (or down a fifth) inside one key. Check where the "make it a dominant" thing could work.

Also try to simply play the chords next to each other. Usually, stepwise or fourth/up (fifth/down) movements seem to work pretty well.

Have a look at "Autumn leaves" (or "Still Got The Blues" or "Europe" - they're basically exactly the same), it's utilizing practically every chord of one key. The formula is:
IImin7-V7-Imaj7-VImaj7-VIImin7/b5-III7-VImin
In C that'd be:
Dmin7-G7-Cmaj7-Fmaj7-Bmin7/b5-E7-Amin
(the original is in Bb)
Because it goes from major to the parallel minor, the last three chords could as well be analysed as IImin7/b5, V7 and Imin (so as a sort of very slight modulation...).

Now you can take small portions out of that progression and fool around with just those.

Some tips I find important to make chords sound nice:

- Really learn about possible option notes and where and how to use them. Just playing a Cmaj9 instead of Cmaj7 at the right time may sometimes result in a completely new feel.

- Make sure you learn all the chord inversions and have a look at voice leading when going from one chord to the other. This is a difference like night and day. Check for yourself:
Cmaj7 to Fmaj7
Cmaj7: C-E-G-B
Fmaj7: F-A-C-E
Play these two and you'll notice how they absolutely *don't* gel together at all.
Now use this for the Fmaj7: C-E-F-A (that's the second inversion). Or E-F-A-C (third inversion).
Notice how much more smooth the transition comes along?
Do that with each and every chord progression you play.

- Learn tunes "lead sheet" style. No transcriptions, just so you can accompany a melody with some chords that you make up on your own with only a chord symbol given. This will teach you a truckload. At least it did for me.

So much for now
Sascha

nice athanks

[flowdesigner]

Use the same progression in minor.
Imin-IVmin-Vmin-Imin

Sascha

if Imin is a A minor IVmin would be f minor - but would not that crash kind of with a minor?
The minor third of f minor is G#
So it should be Fmajor - that sounds nice - but its the Fmajor seventh that sounds nicest isn it? So IVmin could be a major seventh chord?

Sorry but im a total noob

[jancivil]

you're confused. perhaps just reading roman numbers wrong.

A minor is i. iv can't be F minor: a, b, c, d.
D minor.
F is the sixth degree to A. F is VI, F minor would involve an alteration of the scale and key of A minor, and in fact a borrowed chord from a flat key.

It is not constructed F G# C. It is a triad, built with thirds: F Ab C. The reasons for proper spelling are a whole area I don't have the energy to go into atm.

at any rate, the major seventh may be more pleasing to you at the moment but not better per se,, it will depend on what the chord is supposed to do. Usually chords are there to support a tune or give rise to melody in improvisation.

[JumpingJackFlash]

if Imin is a A minor IVmin would be f minor

No, IVmin in A minor would be D minor. - IV is 4.

The minor third of f minor is G#

No, a minor third above F is Ab. Although this sounds the same as G#, there is an important theoretical difference.
F to G is a second as it involves only two notes (F and G).
To make it a third, it has to involve three notes (F,G,A).
So, a minor third above F has to be A-something, not G-something.
A minor third is one semitone less than a major third (F-A), so it has to be F-Ab.

Revise Intervals and Roman Numerals.

IVmin could be a major seventh chord?

No. A major seventh chord contains a major third. Even if the third was minor, adding a major seventh gives you a minor-major seventh (no better name I'm afraid).

[flowdesigner]

It is not constructed F G# C. It is a triad, built with thirds: F Ab C. The reasons for proper spelling are a whole area I don't have the energy to go into atm.

quik question before I try to absorb everything, I have decided for myself to only use and think sharps, that I dont really need to think/learn about flats, could this be ok?
My only ambitions is to be ok in music theory - not a jazz guru

[flowdesigner]

if Imin is a A minor IVmin would be f minor

No, IVmin in A minor would be D minor. - IV is 4.

[/quote]

ok, I thought IV meant subdominant and V dominant

[JumpingJackFlash]

I have decided for myself to only use and think sharps, that I dont really need to think/learn about flats, could this be ok?

No. In my opinion this would be ridiculous and will cause you a lot more trouble in the future that if you just leant flats and sharps now.

They're not exactly hard to learn. In fact, in many ways learning Bb for example is actually easier than learning about A#, and learning about F# is easier than Gb (you will see why with further study).

Some keys use sharps, some use flats. Some chords use sharps, some use flats. To spell a D major triad with a Gb instead of F# for example is just wrong, as is saying the key signature of F major is A# and not Bb.

You need to get the foundations right before you can ever hope to expand on them.

This would be like driving a car and saying you only want to learn how to indicate right because learning how to indicate left might be too confusing!

[JumpingJackFlash]

I thought IV meant subdominant and V dominant

It does. The subdominant is the 4th, the dominant is the 5th.
In A: A is I, B is II, C is III, D is IV, E is V, F is VI, G is VII.

[jancivil]

It is not constructed F G# C. It is a triad, built with thirds: F Ab C. The reasons for proper spelling are a whole area I don't have the energy to go into atm.

quik question before I try to absorb everything, I have decided for myself to only use and think sharps, that I dont really need to think/learn about flats, could this be ok?
My only ambitions is to be ok in music theory - not a jazz guru

it's not if you want to gain an understanding that will apply to keys in a useful fashion.

F minor doesn't belong to the key of A minor. you'll only understand where it relates to by respecting the relationships. it's distant to A minor. you found it a bit jarring or somewhat, and it doesn't necessarily owe to G#. In fact G# belongs to A harmonic or melodic minor, it's part of the dominant chord, V [major], to A minor.

[MarioCup]

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Get a good book on harmony.
I recommend this (http://www.classroom-resources.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Four_Part_Harmony_2866.html) (get it half price if you tell them you won't photocopy it).

Funny thing is that I know about the circle of fifth, in fact I know it without looking on the paper, sure it helps, but IMO it sounds REALLY boring , even if I combine chords that are close to the "family" of that chord. There must be another way?

Knowing the Circle of 5ths and then knowing how to use it is two different things. What maybe of help to you is something that I use and I found it in a book in music store. It is called The Chord Wheel. When yo put the pointer on the key then it gives you the 1,4,5 the minors o's and tells you of the chords that will fit along with them. You can find a lot more info here on it on this website http://www.chordwheel.com/ (http://www.chordwheel.com/)

I have the app on my iPhone and iPad2 and it can be a life saver when trying to figure out a song or writing new one.