LFOs - what do you like?

[mystran]

6 LFO + ADSR envelopes? That's a lot of modulation Maybe good for a sound designer, not a player.

I don't know (or right now even care) what's good for someone.. I was interested in what people (1) use and (2) dream about.

same thing

whats good for a sound designer is what a sound designer wants
whats good for a player is what a player wants

Yup, and once you start designing a synth (or other plugin) you have to compromise anyway because of "practical constraints" which are usually contradictory, like if you make something more complex it'll make someone happy and someone else scared... or you might need to sacrifice some features because it interacts with another feature in a way that makes it impractical for CPU reasons.

But let's forget all that here.

There's a lot of interesting stuff already. What I find curious is how many people seem to think that delay/fade-in are such essential features. I'm also somewhat surprised to see that so many various modes are being mentioned explicitly (ie one-shot, tempo, free-running, per-voice) and that several people would like to see "more forms of random".

[mystran]

What are you favourite LFOs, how do they work? Tempo-synced? Modulated?

Are you building a synth or is this general curiosity?

Well, in some sense both, but it's more about the general curiosity and education of myself as a "sound designer" because I feel that I can make my oscillators and filters do some rather weird stuff, but I always use my LFOs (and mostly those triangles, sometimes sines) for vibrato, PWM and hmmh.. well I guess that was most of it really.

I won't try to lie that I might not be interested in stealing some of the ideas for some of my projects, but that's not really the main point.

[himalaya]

The less reliance on the Matrix Mod for setting up LFO delay or what have you, the better. That's why I prefer LFO modules to have a complete set of features, which I think Alchemy's LFO is one of the best examples of. Cypher's LFOs are also very nicely designed, albeit the delay needs to be assigned via the matrix. It does have some cool options which allow to sculpt the LFO wave with great ease. Saurus' LFOs, though, have a very good audio-rate sound. Very good indeed. I haven't tested Ace yet, but I hear that it also does authentic audio rate mod.

[himalaya]

Once you get this LFO topic covered, start one about the Modulation Matrix. It's time to kill off this archaic system in favour of new designs (already used in some synths). So if you are thinking of doing a new synth - please look at alternative modulation systems already implemented. (sorry for OT).

[himalaya]

, but I always use my LFOs (and mostly those triangles, sometimes sines) for vibrato, PWM and hmmh.. well I guess that was most of it really.

In addition, I like to assign a square wave to volume via aftertouch in an arpegiated patch. Then, as the ARP sound is playing, I add can rhythmic variation via aftertouch.

More random waves are definitely desirable. I like using various random modes for subtle fine pitch modulation (per socillator).

A bipolar-unipolar switch is also nice to have, especially for vibrato, where there is only a unipolar response (like on some acoustic instruments).

Also, it's good to have all LFO parameters exposed in the mod matrix (pretty much like all other parameters).

[mystran]

Once you get this LFO topic covered, start one about the Modulation Matrix. It's time to kill off this archaic system in favour of new designs (already used in some synths). So if you are thinking of doing a new synth - please look at alternative modulation systems already implemented. (sorry for OT).

No, sure, go for it. Topic asks for LFOs but then OP already mentions things like host automation, so anything having to do with modulation is good to go as far as I'm concerned.

Or do you mean getting rid of mod matrix in the sense that the user interface shouldn't show a modulation matrix, but instead rely on visual clues like cables or modulation range indicators on knobs or something similar? Sure it's an important subject, but I think user interface questions aren't really a matter of the "mod matrix" in the sense that it exists inside a plugin. I sure hate having to use a regular "spreadsheet" matrix myself too.

[highkoo]

But let's make LFO delay & attack settings a new synth standard!

This is actually possible on any synth with a mod matrix and 2 sources.

Just assign ENV LFO and ENV ADSR to the destination of choice and there you go, request served

Well, yeah I was thinking the same (assuming the ADSR has delay). But I can see how that might not be ideal in all cases... suppose you want 6 LFOs (like someone said) with each having different delay/attack parameters.. that means using 6 ENVs as well.

Yep, and thats where it goes, quickly.
Making noises is a slippery slope.
If I am messing with a simple synth, madness like multiple LFO ENVs is not even considered, really. It just doesnt go there. But, once I am working on something beefier, and I do start looking for crazy stuff, its easy to want more and more. Being limited at that point is worse for me than just working with simpler tools. I dont expect this weeks freeware to have bells or whistles, but if something costs a few hundred bucks and claims to be the end-all, I dont want it limiting me ffs. Im not really very exceptionally skilled though, so luckily that doesnt happen often.

Anyway...

What I'd be interested know is whether such envelope shaping of LFOs is more common than the use of LFOs and/or envelopes alone. It might make sense to pair the two, somewhat like filters and filter envelopes, such that you could use either alone but wouldn't need any special routing/mod-matrix to do the obvious thing.

Your question is phrased weird, but I think it must be pretty common now. Many many people are commonly using synths that have so many options that its a question of what part of the LFO has what ENV. And whether users are sound designers themselves, or they are using presets made by the best, hopefully they are at least kicking the features around.
For myself, I can see how a synth with 'unlimited' ENV would eventually have me putting multiple ENVs on parts of an LFO just because I could.
Like, maybe its a 1/4 beat faster for the first 16th note, and it goes from sin to sqr over the first 8th, and the power increases over two beasts and the phase shifts 50% over three beats? That could easily should like shit, but I could easily end up trying it.
And a delay/fade option is really just a dumbed down ENV, so I think there are a few +1s here to show that folks are using it.

Thinking about this is making me realize how many of these stupid little things could probably make or break the sale of the next monster synth for me, at this point. The big boys can do SO much now.

Once you get this LFO topic covered, start one about the Modulation Matrix. It's time to kill off this archaic system ...

No, sure, go for it.

+1!
Yes, kill the matriceeeez!
Can everyone just agree to blatantly steal from Massive?
NI cant sue everyone!

[ouroboros]

I'd like to 2nd the vote for bipolar/unipolar option - makes life much easier.

[hcv242]

i like lfos that sync to song position and let you choose the start phase.

[mystran]

i like lfos that sync to song position and let you choose the start phase.

Yeah, I like song position sync too to be honest. I actually find it more useful than regular tempo-sync in many cases..

[Frantz]

Well, in some sense both, but it's more about the general curiosity and education of myself as a "sound designer" because I feel that I can make my oscillators and filters do some rather weird stuff, but I always use my LFOs (and mostly those triangles, sometimes sines) for vibrato, PWM and hmmh.. well I guess that was most of it really.

I was hoping you were building a synth and were trying to spec out the LFOs.

For sound design, LFOs are great at creating variations in what might be a static or dull sound. Imagine you are working on an electronic track and there is a sequence of 8 bleeps repeated for 16 bars. You could take several tempo synced LFOs with a duration of 16 bars and slowly modulate the filter cutoff, PWM, FM amount, pan position, etc. Now that sound is constantly changing and moving. Alternatively, you could use external effects like a flanger, phaser, and panner to get variations in sound and position.

[Alfa210]

@ highkoo

Yeah, guys from NI makes deep work with Massive..

a regular "spreadsheet" matrix

You can look at matrix in Atlantis (fx or synth) by Jeremy.

[Lotuzia]

6 LFO + ADSR envelopes? That's a lot of modulation Maybe good for a sound designer, not a player.

I don't know (or right now even care) what's good for someone.. I was interested in what people (1) use and (2) dream about.

same thing

whats good for a sound designer is what a sound designer wants
whats good for a player is what a player wants

Pointless.

Sound Designers dont work for abstract useless things like mad scientists : They work for real players in sessions, or putative players when doing soundsets or factory content.

Otoh People that are only players dont worry the least about LFOs, they play the instruments created by SDs, and concetrate on playing music. An instrument created for only players should not even show any LFO, and only a representation of a physical control like mod wheel/pedals to allow musicians to perform usual, or less usual, musical gestures/actions like vibrato etc

[Lotuzia]

But let's make LFO delay & attack settings a new synth standard!

This is actually possible on any synth with a mod matrix and 2 sources.

Just assign ENV LFO and ENV ADSR to the destination of choice and there you go, request served

Well, yeah I was thinking the same (assuming the ADSR has delay). But I can see how that might not be ideal in all cases... suppose you want 6 LFOs (like someone said) with each having different delay/attack parameters.. that means using 6 ENVs as well.

Yep, and thats where it goes, quickly.
Making noises is a slippery slope.
If I am messing with a simple synth, madness like multiple LFO ENVs is not even considered, really. It just doesnt go there. But, once I am working on something beefier, and I do start looking for crazy stuff, its easy to want more and more. Being limited at that point is worse for me than just working with simpler tools. I dont expect this weeks freeware to have bells or whistles, but if something costs a few hundred bucks and claims to be the end-all, I dont want it limiting me ffs. Im not really very exceptionally skilled though, so luckily that doesnt happen often.

Anyway...

What I'd be interested know is whether such envelope shaping of LFOs is more common than the use of LFOs and/or envelopes alone. It might make sense to pair the two, somewhat like filters and filter envelopes, such that you could use either alone but wouldn't need any special routing/mod-matrix to do the obvious thing.

Your question is phrased weird, but I think it must be pretty common now. Many many people are commonly using synths that have so many options that its a question of what part of the LFO has what ENV. And whether users are sound designers themselves, or they are using presets made by the best, hopefully they are at least kicking the features around.
For myself, I can see how a synth with 'unlimited' ENV would eventually have me putting multiple ENVs on parts of an LFO just because I could.
Like, maybe its a 1/4 beat faster for the first 16th note, and it goes from sin to sqr over the first 8th, and the power increases over two beasts and the phase shifts 50% over three beats? That could easily should like shit, but I could easily end up trying it.
And a delay/fade option is really just a dumbed down ENV, so I think there are a few +1s here to show that folks are using it.

Thinking about this is making me realize how many of these stupid little things could probably make or break the sale of the next monster synth for me, at this point. The big boys can do SO much now.

Once you get this LFO topic covered, start one about the Modulation Matrix. It's time to kill off this archaic system ...

No, sure, go for it.

+1!
Yes, kill the matriceeeez!
Can everyone just agree to blatantly steal from Massive?
NI cant sue everyone!

NI Massive : This can be discussed.

First when creating instruments for Massive, I often fell short of modulations for certain target parameters : The number of sources for each destination if fixed, and therefore ..... limited. These limitations can be overridden by -well thought- mods matrixes.

Then, as there no central area where you can see all your modulations, Massive have a relative low visual feedback when you want to "see"/"understand all the modulations running in a single patch with a glance. Here again the old mod matrix gives more understanding of what a patch is about, modulation wise.

Last, its the same for many advanced modulations systems : the visual feedback can be very poor, if you wanna see in a single place all the modulations.

I wont give names of synths who have some wonderfull modulations workflows, but that are a bit less worthy when you want to have a global view of whats happening in a patch. Setting the modulations can be very fun, keeping an overview of the whole patch instrument however can be much less rewarding, and -to me- this quick overview is very important, especially when coming back to patches for polishing them some days or weeks after you created it, or adapting instruments QUICKLY to context when working on real projects.

So ......... maybe its not that simple, and each system has its pros and cons .... ( note : and not to be mistaken, I love Massive )

LtZ

[zeep]

Mystran, can't wait to hear what you're developing!

Lfo where you can move phase or just invert (with phase reset on note).
Lfo+flip-flop combo.

This and the inverting controllable by ctrl data / other lfo / etc.
Envelop. Distort/saturate waveform.