How can I make my Vst's as "full" as hardware?

[george]

Okay, more phat VSTs

http://www.discodsp.net/mp3/coronawahwahchoirs.mp3

Single preset, no EQ or external FX.

[tehlord]

All of the synths mentioned in the first post are digital. They are just software in a dedicated box. I've had a Virus Classic, Virus PoCo, Nord Lead 2x, 2 Mophos, and a Tetra before. They're all gone now. No point in having redundancy since software covers everything they can do, and it sounds just as good now. The only thing left is placebo.

I can't agree fully with your assessment. I think that hardware 'software' synths still sound different. For example my JV1080 sounds better then my Omnisphere (the comparison is based on them having broadly similar sounds and the same sound designer for the makority of the content). My old Korg MS2000 sounded at the very least different to the similarly specced VST plugins I used at the time I had it. I'm not talking about specifications differences, just the overall tone of the sound.

[EvilDragon]

That's because of the DAC for the most part, and hardware VAs do use different algorithms for oscillators and filters and stuff. But 0s and 1s are valid even for them. There's no magic there, really. Just different algorithms.

[tehlord]

That's because of the DAC for the most part, and hardware VAs do use different algorithms for oscillators and filters and stuff. But 0s and 1s are valid even for them. There's no magic there, really. Just different algorithms.

Yeah I'm aware of that, but I still think the DAC is a valid reason to invest in hardware.

For the same reason I know guys who spend thousands on outboard DAC in their studio, although I can't see myself going down that route just yet!

[djanthonyw]

All of the synths mentioned in the first post are digital. They are just software in a dedicated box. I've had a Virus Classic, Virus PoCo, Nord Lead 2x, 2 Mophos, and a Tetra before. They're all gone now. No point in having redundancy since software covers everything they can do, and it sounds just as good now. The only thing left is placebo.

I can't agree fully with your assessment. I think that hardware 'software' synths still sound different. For example my JV1080 sounds better then my Omnisphere (the comparison is based on them having broadly similar sounds and the same sound designer for the makority of the content). My old Korg MS2000 sounded at the very least different to the similarly specced VST plugins I used at the time I had it. I'm not talking about specifications differences, just the overall tone of the sound.

You're not comparing the right technology with one another. Omnisphere is not a JV1080 emulation, and the Korg plugins are 10 year old emulations. The Virus PoCo and the Virus Classic / B sound exactly, 100% like each other, so that's just proof in itself that code is code, and regardless of software that's in a dedicated box or a software plugin, that's all it comes down to, the coding.

When it comes to digital emulations of analog synths, options such as Diva, Lush, and U-no-lx are current technology that is on par with hardware counterparts. The audio demos that compare this software to the hardware are pretty much spot on 99.9% and when played by themselves, no one would question if the actually hardware was used.

[lfm]

That's because of the DAC for the most part, and hardware VAs do use different algorithms for oscillators and filters and stuff. But 0s and 1s are valid even for them. There's no magic there, really. Just different algorithms.

Yeah I'm aware of that, but I still think the DAC is a valid reason to invest in hardware.

For the same reason I know guys who spend thousands on outboard DAC in their studio, although I can't see myself going down that route just yet!

I don't get that reasoning - how is the DAC involved compared to ITB synths?

You still have DAC's on your soundcard.

That hardware synths would have that much better DAC's?
I don't believe that is the case.

Do you want to get a hi quality DAC - all things considered about $250?

Check this out:
http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/LAM ... zator.html

$100 DAC board with Crystal chips from HongKong(eBay), and the rest on high quality capacitors and a box to fit it.

Picture of my result:
http://www.larsmusik.com/Dac4397open.jpg

I did the hybrid of his projects - OS Cons and tantal. Stunning sound.

It's not all clear to me how you listen to the hardware you compare to?
Was that taken into the computer - or playing them live with amps?

It's quite a different task to get a recording sound exiting - than live playing in a room.

[secretkillerofnames]

But there's less complexity with dedicated tools and I stand by my assertion that complexity is the primary opponent of reliability. When I power-on my hardware synths, or walk away from them for 12 hours and come back, they make sounds. The same is not true for my Windows setup and I'm tired of being the blame (blame the user) for what essentially is a fundamental design problem. There's no reason why Sonar should stop being capable of producing audio output simply because I walked away for 12 hours. "Close and reopen" is a workaround, ignoring the core problems.

I moved to Mac OSX because of problems with running windows and music apps. Initially this was a great move to a much more stable system but over time i've noticed it has degraded. I also recently installed Windows 7 on my Macbook Pro and it runs more stable and faster than any version of Windows i've ever had. I have to say I think the reason is because it is a clean install, with just a few music apps. Not heaps of games and I don't use the internet on it. My verdict is that having your music apps on an install where you download torrents and continually add & delete new programs is detrimental to the health of your OS. I'm certainly not arguing with what you are saying, just noting that a more closed system is always going to work better.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

And as to comments re buying top end pre's and expensive mixers etc - the more expensive the channels, the less noise. You don't spend thousands on mixers to get distortion and noise. All top end mixers will be clean as a whistle unless you deliberately drive the channels, and everybody assumes all engineers drive all mixers - well they don't. I lose track of how many times I tell people I didn't spend thousands on mixers back in the day so that I could get more noise out of them. Every time anybody upgraded their mixer, it was to either get better Eq, more channels or cleaner throughput - usually all three. You really don't go to a studio supplies shop and ask for noisier boards. Expensive = clean signal.

I'd say it is definately a balance of both these days for sure, Or at least 25% of analogue outboard is designed to add pleasing dirt (If the user wishes to do so) but yes it was all about getting better performance until alot of companies/electronic circuit design folk had users requesting things which whilst on paper are technically flawed just plain work/do what quite alot of people want when investing and processing sounds from ITB to a chain of analogue processors or a summing mixer and then back ITB. Some that spring to mind and sound bloody great just IMveryhumbleHO would include (in no particular order):

Thermionic Culture, The most recent release there 'Solo Vulture' is a true beast! Its dad is no slacker either 'Culture Vulture'. Then the 'Little Bustard' and now its bigger/more of everything brother 'Fat Bustard' despite losing two of inputs the Little Bustard offers/offered:
http://www.thermionicculture.com - I don't at all agree that valves/vacuum tubes are far superior for everything and the desicion to use an unbalanced single-ended output on all thier gear had me scratching my head. Still after having the pleasure of using some of their stuff it just works really well, Is dead easy to quickly get anything dialed in (be in clean to full on THD beyond overdriven) that its impossible to not like. Just a pity its all so damned expensive. Still I don't think they have my home studio in mind when designing and building such good stuff - Checkout the Solo Vulture if you get chance. IMVHHO a decent investment
Empirical Labs, Distressor, Distressor EL8-X, EL8XS, FATSO, FATSO Jnr & the KUSH Audio modded FATSO and Distressor IIRC (Not tried either KUSH units myself): http://www.empiricallabs.com/ and not forgetting the 500-Series modules by many companies from the big guns to 'boutique' small run stuff all aimed at making stuff 'dirty'. I mean yes it is marketing talk to some degree but it does also deliver, Check this out by Empircal Labs: http://www.empiricallabs.com/docderr.html - Top notch components and all but bottom line with tape emulation as its main selling point. Another worth looking into for someone wanting to get into outboard at a not far from fair price, However a 500-Series Lunchbox or alternative is obviously needed which adds onto the price.
Slate Pro Audio's Dragon Compressor with alot of extra features/functions making more than just an analogue compressor: http://www.slateproaudio.com/products/dragon/ Their Fox QuadTone 4-channel mic pre which offers four seperate switchable circuits per channel, All aimed to colour in some way or another: http://www.slateproaudio.com/products/fox/ and the new Raven MTX: http://www.slateproaudio.com/ - Which could be many a studios answer to having as has been mentioned the best of both analogue and digital intergrate together very well, Maybe...
Endless Analog CLASP, Perhaps takes tape machine to its logical conclusion:
http://www.endlessanalog.com/what-is-clasp &/Or: http://www.endlessanalog.com/home - ? I do not know. However I can not think of more intergratted tape machine than what they offer. It works great, It sounds great if that is the sort/variety of sounds you are after then it seems the most practical solution. Very expensive though and Again quite obviously not designed with a dude's home studio in mind to say the least
AnaMod Audio AnaMod ATS1 Analogue Tape Simulator http://www.anamodaudio.com/ and also their 500-Series XF-Tube which is a two stage transformer/tube analog simulator. Haven't tried that, Should be fairly priced like the Empirical DocDerr.
Rupert Neve Designs Portico 5042 line level amplifier 'True Tape' FX: http://rupertneve.com/products/portico-5042/ - Another one which uses no magnetic tape or valves/tubes to do its thing but it does it well/sound nice. Too pricey though yet again for what it is IMO. I'm sure there are plenty more but I'm sure everyone gets the idea. I agree with those whom have said just use both and have the best of both worlds, As they can and do live happily alongside with each other
This SOS article covers alot of things about 'warming' things up and not in a better or worse manner but a practical way of going about it with alot of considerations: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb10/a ... warmth.htm
Also agree that its choice of source that is paramount, Good gear simply will allow a user with experience to achieve results faster and before all that the rooms/spaces used will (or should at least of been) treated acoustically to be sound. All the reference quality gear in the world won't fix a nasty room and ruin all perception of sound sources OTOT its usually the cheapest route to fix for an improved sound

I know what I have written is obvious but still I hope it is useful to some and all the best, Hope 2013 will be a very good year for everybody

Dean

[bobbybland]

Run your software plugins out of a nicer converter,something like a LAVRY DA10 or BURL BOMBER DAC will change your mind about software not sounding good

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Run your software plugins out of a nicer converter,something like a LAVRY DA10 or BURL BOMBER DAC will change your mind about software not sounding good

For sure, I'd love to have either here at my home setup...Finances are the stumbling block bobbybland Ah well one day, One day

[lfm]

Run your software plugins out of a nicer converter,something like a LAVRY DA10 or BURL BOMBER DAC will change your mind about software not sounding good

Will you ship one of those with your music then?????

I mean the listeners are getting whatever their DACs do.

We must not forget the skills hardware manufacturers have with making synthesizers and algorithms for them. The big brands, like Roland and Yamaha, more than 30 years.

So they have the knowhow.

If some programmers decide to make VSTi synths it's kind of starting from scratch - day one really. If you made effects earlier you know more obviously.

I think time will give these as good algorithms for processing.

I tried synthedit 10 years ago and did the tutorial and in a short while I made my first VST synth - how cool was that.

Then I learned I had to look for better components for digital driven oscillators and filters etc to sound better.

So there were many parameters that you have to know about.

To make synths easy to works with and not create too much internal overs they probably have a lot a brickwall limiters in there - that obviously kill dynamics.

[kritikon]

Following on from the DACs duscussion - I don't subscribe to the DACs on h/w synths being the point of difference. Generally many h/w synths will use pretty cheap ones. Any self-respecting home musician is likely to have middling and above converters. Seriously, you'll spend thousands on h/w synths, mixers, $250 per plugin synth, $500 (and the rest) on monitors, and then use the cheapest dirtiest soundcard you can find in a bargain basement toyshop? Makes no sense to me. I know for a fact my own sound card (now defunct) has way better DACs than on any h/w synth I own or have owned.

I can't believe anyone still falls for that argument. Many h/w synths spend far more time and effort on their presets. They have to because that's what sells them. If you spend a little time patching very similar sounds on similar h/w and s/w synths (and you have to use comparable synths - no point comparing apples and carrots) there often is very very little difference.

I personally think too many users fall for sales trickery. Go to any music shop, and they'll put synths through a guitar amp. They may well have them through a normal mixer, but the rest of the chain is not how you'd use your synth at home. Guitar amps and cabs have a completely and utterly different sonic footprint to accurate studio monitors and amps. The reason they put them through cabs and amps is because it's a very coloured and in-yer-face sound. It sells synths. If they put them through top end monitors and clean amps, all these so-called fatter h/w synths would sound like they really do.

My tip for anyone looking at buying h/w synths. Immediately do all your testing through headphones in the shop. See how fat they really are compared to how the shop wants you to hear the synths. It also applies to analogue synths. Junos don't sound so fantastic through headphones with no added FX. It's audio trickery and we fall for it.

I'm not saying there's no difference between some h/w and s/w, but I've never heard much of a difference between digital s/w and h/w. And the differences there are are down to programming. Analogue and digital is different, and there's also good and bad analogue. But I refuse to buy into this "h/w is better" just because it's h/w. All I know is that my converters and monitors are far more accurate than what a shop uses to sell stuff to you. And it has never shown up digital h/w to be "fat". In fact the opposite IMO.

[boimb]

Ow common... most digital harware sounds like crap. I've had many pass through my hands over the years. Overall I always found them subpar with software plug-ins.

I do enjoy some small analog and digital synths like anushri, preenFM, meeblip, shruthi, simply because they sound really unique/limited/flawed/weird, and are such a joy to fool around with. I did buy the A4 and octatrack too, just for fun.

keyboard workstations are the worst however. Even the new ones sound totally dated. No thank you sir...

If i need to produce: Fire-up that PC and click-away!!

I also have the Sherman filter... there I have to admit I never heard anything digital come even close to that f**ked-up sound.

[fmr]

Run your software plugins out of a nicer converter,something like a LAVRY DA10 or BURL BOMBER DAC will change your mind about software not sounding good

Will you ship one of those with your music then?????

I mean the listeners are getting whatever their DACs do.

No, but that's true also for hardware gear - it's not shipped together wit our music either.

We must not forget the skills hardware manufacturers have with making synthesizers and algorithms for them. The big brands, like Roland and Yamaha, more than 30 years.

So they have the knowhow.

You'd be surprised with the lack of know-how these big companies have. Most of the time they just refurbish the same algorhithms in new packages, and sell them again.

If some programmers decide to make VSTi synths it's kind of starting from scratch - day one really. If you made effects earlier you know more obviously.

I don't agree with this either. The vast majority of knowledge comes from universities and research institutions, and it's public or available for licensing.

Of coruse, there's place for improvements, but what I am watching in the most recent years is that there's a lot of independent programmers that are coming with far better algorhithms and acgieve far better results than the big companies. Of course, those also have the resources and the skills, but you see them acquiring smaller companies, and hiring independent developers - why do you think they do that? And why do you think that suddenly some fantastic products stop to be developed?
I recall here the story about the Oberheim Ob-MX, and what happened when the main developer broke with the company (and what happened to Korg Z1 after the main developer died - I just read about that yesterday in a forum right here on KVR). Sometimes, the power resides where we don't expect it to be.

[do_androids_dream]

Im desperate, i feel like nothing will satisfy my ears until i drop an arm and a leg on a rompler, and i really dont want to do that if i dont have to.

If you really are that desperate then i would say save up and drop the cash. Everything else will just be a compromise that will ultimately bother you if you don't. I was in a similar position (i have settled on just one vsti that satisfied my requirement for sound quality) and realised that i couldn't keep endlessly auditioning the next hyped softsynth in hope. Save up and buy the thing that actually has the sound quality you are after and then you can get on with making music.