Lyrics
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- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
If my recommendations are not desired here, please say so and I'll quit my KVR membership. I'm sick of it that there are always some people who feel the urge to say something against it...bluedad wrote:please everybody let's just get along. Deb and Tricky I think you've both made your point.
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- Banned
- 9890 posts since 14 Nov, 2006
@OP: I'm guessing these will be similar to exercises found in books, but these can be done at no cost to you. 
http://www.learneverythingabout.com/lyr ... g_lessons/
http://nicholastozier.com/words/lyric-w ... -workshop/
http://www.andyharrisonmusic.com/8-step ... -exercise/
and more to choose from here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=lyric+w ... 3&ie=UTF-8
http://www.learneverythingabout.com/lyr ... g_lessons/
http://nicholastozier.com/words/lyric-w ... -workshop/
http://www.andyharrisonmusic.com/8-step ... -exercise/
and more to choose from here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=lyric+w ... 3&ie=UTF-8
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
This is like the Hotel California, you can check out any time you like but you can never leave.
I wonder how many great lyricists learned 'how to' from a book. There are technical aspects you get from a book, like if you want to get metrical poetry concepts from the Elizabethans you look at that, iamb and dactyl, the long and short rhythm essentially, and the amount of 'feet', and you can gauge rhythm and how syllables in time belong to that kind of idea.
But it seems like to me the people that get really good at something like music really want it badly, are really driven and hot to do it. I think there is a quality of intelligence, aka talent, that arrives out of that desire and I think that sort of person might make their own, particular and pertinent observations of the models they choose without a lot of input from other people's notions of it. It occurs to me that people that like books to take up a lot of space in this process are not so much the same people as the people that are really driven to become great, which is a manifestation perhaps of the talent for the thing.
I wonder how many great lyricists learned 'how to' from a book. There are technical aspects you get from a book, like if you want to get metrical poetry concepts from the Elizabethans you look at that, iamb and dactyl, the long and short rhythm essentially, and the amount of 'feet', and you can gauge rhythm and how syllables in time belong to that kind of idea.
But it seems like to me the people that get really good at something like music really want it badly, are really driven and hot to do it. I think there is a quality of intelligence, aka talent, that arrives out of that desire and I think that sort of person might make their own, particular and pertinent observations of the models they choose without a lot of input from other people's notions of it. It occurs to me that people that like books to take up a lot of space in this process are not so much the same people as the people that are really driven to become great, which is a manifestation perhaps of the talent for the thing.
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- KVRAF
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
I've been writing song lyrics since the mid 1980's. No, you haven't heard any of my lyrics in any songs on the radio, and I've not likely heard your music other than in the cafe. I call that even. If you are reading this, you probably enjoy making music. Me too. Let's all get off our high-horses.
Two resources which have helped me with springboard ideas for writing and editing lyrics have been mentioned in this thread:
Robin Frederick's book is actually a great book that breaks down current hit songs and categorizes them and what makes them work.
Who cares if you haven't heard of her. Yes, she makes her living through TAXI and getting others to buy her books. Shame on her!
It's a great book, that is edited at least once a year so that if you buy it through Amazon, you get a book with recent enough examples that the book doesn't seem out of date. It's printed on demand. My copy was printed one day after I purchased it. Look on the last printed page and you'll see the print date.
The other excellent resource is Pat Pattison's songwriting course available for free from Berklee College of Music and Coursera.org. . It starts up in just a few days. This will be the third time it's run this year. Outstanding course to get you to think about mostly lyric writing and some different ways of approaching writing lyrics.
Of course there's no magic bullet, but there are methods that can be learned and applied, just as in any other art. The Flemish master painters didn't all just appear out of nowhere. They actually learned from each other. Van Dyck was a student of Rubens, etc. Van Dyck opened a school and like minded individuals learned from him, etc.
Both of these resources take completely different angles on lyric writing, with Pattison focusing on stable/unstable feeling in meter, number of lines, rhyming schemes, etc.
Frederick's book focuses more on song structures and forms and makes basic introductions of the refrain line, pre-chorus vs. no pre-chorus, etc. in bite-sized chunks.
Pattison's course at Berklee/Coursera: https://www.coursera.org/course/songwriting
Frederick's book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Shortcuts-Hit-Son ... erick+song
Both of these have helped me enjoy the process of writing and editing lyrics. I think that's what the OP is looking for.
-Scott
Two resources which have helped me with springboard ideas for writing and editing lyrics have been mentioned in this thread:
Robin Frederick's book is actually a great book that breaks down current hit songs and categorizes them and what makes them work.
Who cares if you haven't heard of her. Yes, she makes her living through TAXI and getting others to buy her books. Shame on her!
It's a great book, that is edited at least once a year so that if you buy it through Amazon, you get a book with recent enough examples that the book doesn't seem out of date. It's printed on demand. My copy was printed one day after I purchased it. Look on the last printed page and you'll see the print date.
The other excellent resource is Pat Pattison's songwriting course available for free from Berklee College of Music and Coursera.org. . It starts up in just a few days. This will be the third time it's run this year. Outstanding course to get you to think about mostly lyric writing and some different ways of approaching writing lyrics.
Of course there's no magic bullet, but there are methods that can be learned and applied, just as in any other art. The Flemish master painters didn't all just appear out of nowhere. They actually learned from each other. Van Dyck was a student of Rubens, etc. Van Dyck opened a school and like minded individuals learned from him, etc.
Both of these resources take completely different angles on lyric writing, with Pattison focusing on stable/unstable feeling in meter, number of lines, rhyming schemes, etc.
Frederick's book focuses more on song structures and forms and makes basic introductions of the refrain line, pre-chorus vs. no pre-chorus, etc. in bite-sized chunks.
Pattison's course at Berklee/Coursera: https://www.coursera.org/course/songwriting
Frederick's book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Shortcuts-Hit-Son ... erick+song
Both of these have helped me enjoy the process of writing and editing lyrics. I think that's what the OP is looking for.
-Scott
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- KVRAF
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
The other thing about writing lyrics is that you have to practice it just like any other part of songwriting/learning an instrument/learning a piece of software.
There are very few savants. Most people that get good at something practice their craft. Writing lyrics is no different. Be prolific. Now and then, a golden nugget of letters will turn up. Seeding and shaping those nuggets is what the books and classes are good for.
-Scott
There are very few savants. Most people that get good at something practice their craft. Writing lyrics is no different. Be prolific. Now and then, a golden nugget of letters will turn up. Seeding and shaping those nuggets is what the books and classes are good for.
-Scott
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- KVRAF
- 21348 posts since 26 Jul, 2005 from Gone
Dude - take Deb's comments for what they are - disagreement with your point of view. It doesn't warrant any kind of overreaction, and you don't need validation of your recommendations - people have the choice to take them or leave them.Tricky-Loops wrote:If my recommendations are not desired here, please say so and I'll quit my KVR membership. I'm sick of it that there are always some people who feel the urge to say something against it...
There's no point in getting heated about someone having an opinion that differs from yours, and there are plenty of people here who feel like saying something about ANYONE'S opinion if they have a different one.
Walk away for a while and come back later. It's not that big of a deal.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I don't recall anyone saying to do something out of a vacuum or as if they're going to reinvent the wheel. I tend to doubt van Dyck getting his modeling of Rubens from reading somebody's book, though.rockstar_not wrote:there are methods that can be learned and applied, just as in any other art. The Flemish master painters didn't all just appear out of nowhere. They actually learned from each other. Van Dyck was a student of Rubens, etc. Van Dyck opened a school and like minded individuals learned from him, etc.
I think books are good for that, personally.rockstar_not wrote: Frederick's book focuses more on song structures and forms and makes basic introductions of the refrain line, pre-chorus vs. no pre-chorus, etc. in bite-sized chunks.
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- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
2 pages of bashing just because of my recommendation of "Shortcuts to Hit Songwriting", this was really annoying. If I would recommend a lyric writing course for $1,000 then I understand it when someone complains that's too much money, and you can learn writing lyrics for free -- but $30? That's nearly a no-brainer...robojam wrote:Dude - take Deb's comments for what they are - disagreement with your point of view. It doesn't warrant any kind of overreaction, and you don't need validation of your recommendations - people have the choice to take them or leave them.Tricky-Loops wrote:If my recommendations are not desired here, please say so and I'll quit my KVR membership. I'm sick of it that there are always some people who feel the urge to say something against it...
There's no point in getting heated about someone having an opinion that differs from yours, and there are plenty of people here who feel like saying something about ANYONE'S opinion if they have a different one.
Walk away for a while and come back later. It's not that big of a deal.
If you've read the book and have something to criticize about its content, it's okay, but this was general bashing. Turning down the book just because Robin Frederick has written songs for Disney, that's ridiculous. I would be proud to learn something from people who even write songs for Disney...
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- KVRAF
- 21348 posts since 26 Jul, 2005 from Gone
Well that comment was to point out the truism that success does not equal quality. Some people don't want success at the expense of having to comply with a set of cliches. I think that's a valid comment to put in this discussion - we simply disagree - I'd be ashamed to have my name associated with that shit.
Difference of opinion. What's the big deal?
Difference of opinion. What's the big deal?
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thecontrolcentre thecontrolcentre https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=76240 - KVRAF
- 37262 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from Scottish Borders
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- KVRAF
- 1667 posts since 2 Apr, 2006 from Studio City, California
I had written about eighty songs by the time I found this book by Sheila Davis - The Craft of Lyric Writing it definitely helped me refine my craft and I still reference it seven hundred songs later. Highly recommended.
Brought to you by the Hall of Sound
http://soundcloud.com/section-d-records
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http://soundcloud.com/section-d-records
www.soundclick.com/theresistanceband
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1446 posts since 8 Feb, 2006
Terve! Yup, I think finnish is a great language for various genres, and all the artists you mentioned are great for me too. Mä tykkään myös J.Karjalaisen biiseistä (hyvää musaa ja tarttuvat sanat).ras.s wrote:Some IMHO :
Some people talk without saying anything - if you avoid that, you're a good lyricist. A single sentence that makes a point is usually what I memorize about the lyrics of song (and make it extra effective by making it come at just the right moment). If it's not there, then I'll probably feel indifferent about the song.
If you write in finnish, use various suffixes and bends (liitteitä & taivutuksia) to your benefit. It makes the language of the lyric more colourful and perhaps easier to strike the listener. In a recent text I used the word 'pikaistuksissansahan' and I thought it was rather clever (it also takes me two bars to spit that out). In english that single word would take atleast a sentence and even then the meaning wouldn't be the same. Also avoid that way of simplifying verbs (he katoaa verrattuna he katoavat, jälkimmäinen on oikeaoppinen), it's really irritating and even more so when it's on a recording.
Also study music by Juice Leskinen, he was a mastermind.
Edit: Ja Gösta Sundqvist aka Leevi and the Leavings, huhhu!
I have a bad habbit to write how I feel, I think I need to have a different kind of angle. Anyway, here's one of my tunes in Finnish, my neighbour likes it. I made this song in 2011:
Tattista & Kippistä!
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- KVRian
- 1224 posts since 2 Dec, 2008 from Finland
No mutta, kylhä jäbäl o kykyä! Tarttuva sanaleikki yhdistettynä jonkinlaiseen sanomaan o just se mistä ite tykkään. Ja sekin viel, et tyyli ei o saarnaava vaan enempi toteava, .. "pakko myöntää et näät joka päivä paljon vaivaa, se on ku veis joka päivä auton huoltoon". Kelpo tekstihän tuo, ainakin mun mielestäni. Flowssa ehkä ruuvaamisen varaa, mut oletan et lienet kans kehittynyt tuon tekemisen jälkeen. Sovituksellisesti se vihellys o kans pirun timmi.
Ja joo, J. Karjalainen o kans hyvä sanailija.
Aaaand.. It was interesting you said you'd like a different angle from how you personally feel. I don't quite get that -- isn't self-expression the best reason to make a song anyway? And if someone is able to express themself, I think it's quite an accomplishment. If you'd like a different angle, what could it possibly be, I can't come up with an alternative. Some times there's songs about what people observe, and the song you posted was sort of like that, but no one ever tells a story without telling it from their own perspective.
ariston there said to try and tell a story from someone else's perspective ("try writing a lyric from the perspective of a ninety-year old Bulgarian nun with a bad cigarette habit") and while I think that's a good tip, the problem with is that we have to use assumptions and preconceptions to do that - ultimately failing to do nothing but expressing our own opinion - and even worse, our own prejudice.
Tarttuva sanaleikki yhdistettynä jonkinlaiseen sanomaan o just se mistä ite tykkään. Ja sekin viel, et tyyli ei o saarnaava vaan enempi toteava, .. "pakko myöntää et näät joka päivä paljon vaivaa, se on ku veis joka päivä auton huoltoon". Kelpo tekstihän tuo, ainakin mun mielestäni. Flowssa ehkä ruuvaamisen varaa, mut oletan et lienet kans kehittynyt tuon tekemisen jälkeen. Sovituksellisesti se vihellys o kans pirun timmi. Ja joo, J. Karjalainen o kans hyvä sanailija.
Aaaand.. It was interesting you said you'd like a different angle from how you personally feel. I don't quite get that -- isn't self-expression the best reason to make a song anyway? And if someone is able to express themself, I think it's quite an accomplishment. If you'd like a different angle, what could it possibly be, I can't come up with an alternative. Some times there's songs about what people observe, and the song you posted was sort of like that, but no one ever tells a story without telling it from their own perspective.
ariston there said to try and tell a story from someone else's perspective ("try writing a lyric from the perspective of a ninety-year old Bulgarian nun with a bad cigarette habit") and while I think that's a good tip, the problem with is that we have to use assumptions and preconceptions to do that - ultimately failing to do nothing but expressing our own opinion - and even worse, our own prejudice.
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- KVRAF
- 3878 posts since 28 Jun, 2009 from Wherever I lay my hat
That's true, of course, the point being: you will express yourself best if you stop trying to express yourself. Writing about your "innermost feelings" usually results in bad poetry (of the "oh woe is me" persuasion). This can be forgiveable at a tender age (say, around about puberty), but for adults, there's just no excuse.ras.s wrote: ariston there said to try and tell a story from someone else's perspective ("try writing a lyric from the perspective of a ninety-year old Bulgarian nun with a bad cigarette habit") and while I think that's a good tip, the problem with is that we have to use assumptions and preconceptions to do that - ultimately failing to do nothing but expressing our own opinion.
It's an attitude, of course. There are some who'd argue otherwise, which is fine.