Reason?

[stroker_ace]

I didn't say no vst creators made RE. I said that the majority are not made by people who make vsts. I am not saying every RE is great but I am saying a lot of the great ones are made by people who do not make vsts.

That simply isn't true, unless your definitions of "a lot" and "great" vary greatly from mine.

But I'll play along...

Please name all the great Rack Extensions that have been made by people who do not make VSTs.

Then put that list against all the great VSTs that are made by people who do not make Rack Extensions.

Then tell me which is the vastly superior, not to mention much, much, much longer, list.

Every Reason-defender has to wildly skew the argument before trying to make a point. They never just admit "yes, it's severely limited, but I don't mind the limitations"; it's always a big song and dance that adds up to nothing.

Taken on its own, it's a nice piece of software, but when you start to compare features with other DAWs, it gets absolutely murdered.

[Tronam]

Yay, another Reason thread devolved into DAW pissing match.

[kmonkey]

Yay, another Reason thread devolved into DAW pissing match.

Yes sadly..but stroker_ace is right there..i guess he wouldn't reply if there wasn't such irrational generalization of one closed ecosystem with other opened DAW apps out there..

[IncarnateX]

Yay, another Reason thread devolved into DAW pissing match.

HAH! Look at it this way: Every dude (or dudette) that makes good sound and music a question of tools and not talent have not only revealed themselves seriously lacking the latter but also shown that they rather like to waste time counting features of DAWS at internet forums than actually make music with them.

The wonderful paradox of threads like this.

Unfortunately it works both ways because it is just as much a waste of time to actually read and answer crap like this, just like I am doing right now.

[trimph1]

I'm with IncarnateX:

It has devolved into ....who has the bigger wang?

[krucial]

I didn't say no vst creators made RE. I said that the majority are not made by people who make vsts. I am not saying every RE is great but I am saying a lot of the great ones are made by people who do not make vsts.

That simply isn't true, unless your definitions of "a lot" and "great" vary greatly from mine.

But I'll play along...

Please name all the great Rack Extensions that have been made by people who do not make VSTs.

Then put that list against all the great VSTs that are made by people who do not make Rack Extensions.

Then tell me which is the vastly superior, not to mention much, much, much longer, list.

Every Reason-defender has to wildly skew the argument before trying to make a point. They never just admit "yes, it's severely limited, but I don't mind the limitations"; it's always a big song and dance that adds up to nothing.

Taken on its own, it's a nice piece of software, but when you start to compare features with other DAWs, it gets absolutely murdered.

You clearly have not comprehend what he wrote. You are turning this into a dick measuring contest. I will say I don't consider KevWest as a Reason defender if you go to the PH boards you will see he is very critical of PH a lot of times. He has a more balanced view on things when it comes to Reason users. He made his point you simply failed to grasp it.

[neverenoughfunk]

I didn't say no vst creators made RE. I said that the majority are not made by people who make vsts. I am not saying every RE is great but I am saying a lot of the great ones are made by people who do not make vsts.

That simply isn't true, unless your definitions of "a lot" and "great" vary greatly from mine.

But I'll play along...

Please name all the great Rack Extensions that have been made by people who do not make VSTs.

Then put that list against all the great VSTs that are made by people who do not make Rack Extensions.

Then tell me which is the vastly superior, not to mention much, much, much longer, list.

Every Reason-defender has to wildly skew the argument before trying to make a point. They never just admit "yes, it's severely limited, but I don't mind the limitations"; it's always a big song and dance that adds up to nothing.

Taken on its own, it's a nice piece of software, but when you start to compare features with other DAWs, it gets absolutely murdered.

You clearly have not comprehend what he wrote. You are turning this into a dick measuring contest. I will say I don't consider KevWest as a Reason defender if you go to the PH boards you will see he is very critical of PH a lot of times. He has a more balanced view on things when it comes to Reason users. He made his point you simply failed to grasp it.

i have to disagree with this... i know KevWest from futureproducers, gearslutz, Propellerhead, videos... and his views change with the wind...

with that said... you cant knock Reason... whether it is your main DAW or not... Reason is a nice tool to have in your tool box... lets be honest here... there is no omnisphere/trillian, kontakt, etc in Reason... look at Ozone the vst... only one module of Ozone with the current sdk is possible in Reason... to me and others that is a limitation... does that stop one from making music... hell no!!! but there are limitations in Reason when compared to the vst/i... that is a fact...

again... not knocking Reason... it is not my main DAW but i use it all the time to sketch out different ideas...

[3rdFloorSound]

I didn't say no vst creators made RE. I said that the majority are not made by people who make vsts. I am not saying every RE is great but I am saying a lot of the great ones are made by people who do not make vsts.

That simply isn't true, unless your definitions of "a lot" and "great" vary greatly from mine.

But I'll play along...

Please name all the great Rack Extensions that have been made by people who do not make VSTs.

Then put that list against all the great VSTs that are made by people who do not make Rack Extensions.

Hold up. Who's twisting the comparison around here?
Kev: RE's made by non-vst devs vs RE's made by vst devs.
Ace: RE's made by non-vst devs vs vsts made by non RE devs

I honestly don't give a shit about the argument but that's kinda silly looking at the change in terms above.

[stroker_ace]

I actually cant believe the RE thing didnt put Props out of business...

In the short-term I'm sure it was very profitable, but in the long-term it will blow up in their faces.

But it was at least partially brilliant........for a while, anyway.

Before Rack Extensions, a Reason update would usually include 3 devices and some workflow upgrades, and it would cost $99.

Now, they're getting $55-$99 per device through the Rack Extension shop, and they're charging $149 for upgrades.

They've just tripled their prices, and most of the Reason community is thanking them for it!

And Rack Extension licenses are non-transferable!

So, to recap: Rack Extensions are often weaker than their VST counterparts, they can only be used in one DAW, and they're non-transferable.

If there's a worse deal in the music software world, I don't know about it.

It's a completely unsustainable business model.

As more and more Reason users start to wake up to what a terrible deal Rack Extensions are they will stop buying them, and Propellerheads will be forced to rethink their entire philosophy around them.

[thetechnobear]

Perhaps PH should make the RE (& Rewire) SDK public (rather than requiring company registration), and allow other RE hosts to be written, so widening its usefulness.

Im sure the differences for writing for RE vs VST are not that great, and plugin developers already cope with multiple standards AU/AAX/RTAS/VST2/VST3.

Its a great to have a variety and the VST and AU sdks are not perfect… so lets have choice.

I like Reason, it doesn't limit me as I rewire it into other DAWs so can use what I like, also some REs are not instruments/fx, but useful extensions specific to reason (e.g. CV routing) … so they are necessary.

perhaps its 'niche', thats fine.. choice again

[Tronam]

Before Rack Extensions, a Reason update would usually include 3 devices and some workflow upgrades, and it would cost $99.

Yeah, with 2-3 years wait between releases. You really think that old business model would be sustainable nowadays? Especially now that Reason isn't just an instrument rack anymore?

Now, they're getting $55-$99 per device through the Rack Extension shop, and they're charging $149 for upgrades.

I think you mean $119 and yep, I'm pretty sure it's something like 8 REs released since v6.5, only 2 of which were free for upgraders. Reason 6 was not a minor upgrade though, so I find it hard to give the Props flack for it. R7 is debatable, but to some the MIDI out/Recycle stuff might have been a dream come true.

The bottom line is that Reason users have vastly more choice now. You can try to smear it any way you'd like, but the value judgment argument you keep trying to shove down everyone's throats is irrelevant. People attach value to whatever is important to them and dedicated Reason users now have access to so many more tools than ever before.

One of the points KevWest was trying to make is that some of the best RE developers aren't simply trying to do 1:1 ports of already existing VST plugins. They're coming up with devices more specifically designed to take advantage of Reason's more modular environment or they're simply just dedicated to it exclusively like Selig. It's a smaller market, but no less passionate.

[liquidsound]

I just heard something that was produced in Reason top-to-bottom. I would have never guessed - it sounded, really, really good - as good as anything that could come out of Live or Logic.

I haven't used Reason since 2.5, and always thought of it as more of a toy than anything else. I used to Rewire it into Logic for little arpeggios or drum parts. I haven't looked at it since then. Has this thing matured into the real deal? I was seriously impressed with this piece I heard. Somebody clue me in!

Are you referring to "Snow White" by Muttonhead? Yes that's a good production IMO and I can't detect the "Reason Sound".
I like Reason and about the RE vs VST power we may have to face the fact that the edge of the same RE vs the VST version is the powerful back panel that is not available, now and probably never, in the VST world. And that's is definitely a powerful feature. If any of you never used it properly than you shouldn't use your opinion with such a convinced attitude.
Reason is Very Powerful with an amazing workflow in its own way such as Live is so great in its way as a live tool and as an instrument as well.

[Tronam]

All DAWs have a "sound". It comes from using their native effects, instruments, stock samples and time-stretching. For example, I hear Ableton Live absolutely everywhere nowadays, from Operator to Auto Filter to audio clip warp modes and blatant use of that edgy reverb on default settings.

[Biscotto]

All DAWs have a "sound". It comes from using their native effects, instruments, stock samples and time-stretching. For example, I hear Ableton Live absolutely everywhere nowadays, from Operator to Auto Filter to audio clip warp modes and blatant use of that edgy reverb on default settings.

Would you bet your "whatever" on it. Can you really tell each piece of music from which DAW is coming from? You are Gifted then.

If it comes to instruments then, I can understand you, but I still think that it takes a good sound designer and a great deal of experience and exposure to those particular Instruments to take them apart in a good Mix.

Anyway, "Reason sound" is probably better defined as a "Reason's Users sound".

[Tronam]

Would you bet your "whatever" on it. Can you really tell each piece of music from which DAW is coming from? You are Gifted then.

If it comes to instruments then, I can understand you, but I still think that it takes a good sound designer and a great deal of experience and exposure to those particular Instruments to take them apart in a good Mix.

Anyway, "Reason sound" is probably better defined as a "Reason's Users sound".

What I'm saying is that the "sound" characteristics (not the music) which differentiates one DAW from another comes down to their included plugins, sample content and how their timestretching algorithms warp audio. Stock device and preset junkies in particular help amplify those characteristics, especially in the realm of electronic music. Unfortunately many of those types of discussions forget about these details and instead focus on the repeatedly ABX debunked magical mixing engine nonsense.