Dark neo-classical and other stuff

[chaosWyrM]

Well, the difference is clear: people in the 90s used to call "neoclassical" all those "piano+cello+ethereal voice" projects, such as this one:



"ethereal" has more to do with Cocteau Twins and the likes, IMO. It's more "keyboards+guitar+ethereal voice". Something like this:

except for they didnt. no one used the term "neoclassical" IN the 90s (well....not here they didnt...and in fact still dont). but other than that...yes thats my point...they arent the same thing, as you say, the difference is clear...and hes using the term "neoclassical" but attributing it to ethereal artists...thats all i was saying...and hence my suggestion to check out the artists i mentioned, one of which was the cocteau twins that you just mentioned as being ethereal...like im saying....so it sounds like we are in agreement.

[aMUSEd]

Neoclassical is late Stravinsky, Hindemith etc (eg Ludus Tonalis)

[mhog]

Well, the difference is clear: people in the 90s used to call "neoclassical" all those "piano+cello+ethereal voice" projects, such as this one:



"ethereal" has more to do with Cocteau Twins and the likes, IMO. It's more "keyboards+guitar+ethereal voice". Something like this:

except for they didnt. no one used the term "neoclassical" IN the 90s (well....not here they didnt...and in fact still dont). but other than that...yes thats my point...they arent the same thing, as you say, the difference is clear...and hes using the term "neoclassical" but attributing it to ethereal artists...thats all i was saying...and hence my suggestion to check out the artists i mentioned, one of which was the cocteau twins that you just mentioned as being ethereal...like im saying....so it sounds like we are in agreement.

----> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_dark_wave

...But I understand these "genres" (ethereal, darkwave, neoclassic, medieval etc.) can be easily mixed up (and often they are). For instance, in the list, wikipedia puts Italian "Ordo Equitum Solis", too (which are everything but "neoclassic darkwave").

[chaosWyrM]

Well, the difference is clear: people in the 90s used to call "neoclassical" all those "piano+cello+ethereal voice" projects, such as this one:



"ethereal" has more to do with Cocteau Twins and the likes, IMO. It's more "keyboards+guitar+ethereal voice". Something like this:

except for they didnt. no one used the term "neoclassical" IN the 90s (well....not here they didnt...and in fact still dont). but other than that...yes thats my point...they arent the same thing, as you say, the difference is clear...and hes using the term "neoclassical" but attributing it to ethereal artists...thats all i was saying...and hence my suggestion to check out the artists i mentioned, one of which was the cocteau twins that you just mentioned as being ethereal...like im saying....so it sounds like we are in agreement.

----> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_dark_wave

...But I understand these "genres" (ethereal, darkwave, neoclassic, medieval etc.) can be easily mixed up (and actually they are)

well a few things wrong with that...not the least of which is that its a wiki article...i mean i could go and change the whole thing right now.

also it says right on the page that it needs verification.

and again...they put things into the genre that clearly predate it...that article is a hot mess.

but yes...they do get mixed up...mostly because they arent real. like i said...no one was using the term neoclassical-darkwave (together or separate) at the time. these are all made up sub genres in which every little detail is nit picked and assigned a new sub genre regardless if it really a difference or not.

i mean look what you did earlier with the "piano+cello+ethereal voice" vs "keyboards+guitar+ethereal voice"

thats nuts man...no one at the time would ever have dreamed of being so specific. all of that was just "ethereal".

the genres get mixed up because they all refer to basically the same thing anyway and who can keep that nonsese straight? its typical goth/industrial elitist d'bags who have to ruin it for everyone else by dividing it up into imaginary little boxes. (absolutely NOT referring to you or anyone specific...i mean come on...if youve spent any time in that scene you know what im talking about).

its just silly.

[mhog]

sorry, mate... not to be rude, but here (meaning: "the rest of the world") we used to talk of "neoclassical-darkwave" not only because it exists, but even because most of us played it, we gave interviews on magazines who called us "neoclassical-darkwave band" in their reviews, made records and even gave some concerts around Europe

I agree, labels are stupid.

[chaosWyrM]

sorry, mate... not to be rude, but here (meaning: "the rest of the world") we used to talk of "neoclassical-darkwave" not only because it exists, but even because most of us played it, we gave interviews on magazines who called us "neoclassical-darkwave band" in their reviews, made records and even gave some concerts around Europe

I agree, labels are stupid.

well...no one used those terms here, and i never read any articles (at the time) that did either.

none of this matters in the slightest.

i still maintain the music the op was describing was ethereal and not neoclassical darkwave.

[rp314]

Neoclassical is late Stravinsky, Hindemith etc (eg Ludus Tonalis)

Actually Stravinsky's late stuff tends to acknowledge more the Second Viennese school but boy did he get a bunch of grief from the avant-garde for the Neoclassical stuff.

There are probably always more than a few who find lots of goodies in the tradition.

[aMUSEd]

Neoclassical is late Stravinsky, Hindemith etc (eg Ludus Tonalis)

Actually Stravinsky's late stuff tends to acknowledge more the Second Viennese school but boy did he get a bunch of grief from the avant-garde for the Neoclassical stuff.

There are probably always more than a few who find lots of goodies in the tradition.

Yes of course, Stravinsky's work encompassed many phases and he always experimented with different musical forms even within periods (much like Picasso), I meant his more mature works like "The Rakes Progress" but as you say he did eventually move beyond Neoclassicism into a form of serialism in his final decade or so, but his Neoclassical period was probably the longest.

Anyway evidently nothing to do with The Cocteau Twins etc

http://www.lcsproductions.net/MusicHist ... icism.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassicism_(music)

[whyterabbyt]

all of that was just "ethereal".

that's a 'kin genre name now? FFS. Robin Guthrie would probably have punched you in the face for using that in the same sentence as 'Cocteau Twins'

[mhog]

all of that was just "ethereal".

that's a 'kin genre name now? FFS. Robin Guthrie would probably have punched you in the face for using that in the same sentence as 'Cocteau Twins'

Well, it's not that "dream pop" is not less idiot as a genre name. BUT sometimes labels can be useful for newbies, they let them discover new "universes", so to speak. In this case "ethereal" is rather accurate, expecially for the Raymonde/Guthrie period.

I still remember that episode when CT had been booed by Metallica fans when opening their gig... (since Hetfield was a fan, he wanted them on stage, haha). That is because in the 90s many doom metal bands used to play "ethereal", "neoclassical" and such "genres".

For instance, this Norwegian band here, it is known for being a "doom metal" band. Their music is categorized under "doom metal" genre. In the darkwave scene people used to call them "ethereal", though.

[chaosWyrM]

all of that was just "ethereal".

that's a 'kin genre name now? FFS. Robin Guthrie would probably have punched you in the face for using that in the same sentence as 'Cocteau Twins'

no...not now..."WAS"....past tense.

you guys are not seeing the forest for the trees here. im not saying these different genres dont exist...or are not really different.

lets review:

1. the op asked for recommendations for dark neoclassical AND "other stuff"...it would follow then that they maybe dont know a lot about the music and its many permutations...which is why they are asking.

2. it has been established that the genre names get confusing and mixed up for people.

3. there is an obvious link and similarity between the more etheral artists and the more neoclassical-darkwave artists

i dont think its beyond the scope of possibility that the op might be interested in checking out my suggestions, especially based on the description he gave.

there is no point in having a pissing contest about it. he will either be interested in my suggestions or he wont.

[whyterabbyt]

you guys are not seeing the forest for the trees here. im not saying these different genres dont exist...or are not really different.

No, you're just missing my point entirely, which was 'these are f**king stupid genre names'.

They're also f**king stupid genre names that I have never heard used by anyone prior to now, in all the time there has been since I first heard them in 1982, right through to knowing folk in that circle, and on till today.

And that's all I said. That's it. Play genre policeman all you want, it will change neither of these things.

[mhog]

The real fact is that, at the time, the bands who made "ethereal" just called themselves "darkwave". On the contrary, the ones who made "neoclassic-darkwave" even declared themselves "a neoclassical band". The term "ethereal" was not a genre then, it was just a way to differentiate classic gothic style (a la Sisters of Mercy, the Cure, Bauhaus, Fields of the Nephilim, Clan of Ximox etc.) from bands which simply had a "gothic" aura and "mystique" (and consequently had a large following among goth people: see Hyperium's "heavenly voices", CMI's side labels, etc.). Sometimes it was because they simply came out from postpunk scene (Dead Can Dance, Cocteu Twins etc.), but did not play neither classic "gothic rock" nor pure postpunk.

But that was a long long long time ago... We don't exist anymore, so keep calm

[Roman Empire]

... and to make it even more confusing, in the 80s we´d call stuff like Winnie Moore and Yngwee Malmsteen neoclassical because of how it borrows alot from traditional classical music - baroque in particular. Not so sure why the music on topic here is sharing that name, but it sounds nice

Best Regards

Roman Empire

[mhog]

... and to make it even more confusing, in the 80s we´d call stuff like Winnie Moore and Yngwee Malmsteen neoclassical because of how it borrows alot from traditional classical music - baroque in particular. Not so sure why the music on topic here is sharing that name, but it sounds nice

Best Regards

Roman Empire

... not to mention all those artists that were part of so called "Apocalyptic Folk" hehe