Jukedeck

[Aleatoriac]

So, the algorithm that's cleverly built enough to analyze for tendencies is reductive to a surface that a machine lacking a history of experience can manage, so the music is going to be superficial by definition.

Agreed, but I must ask, what exactly is it that Humans are doing that is so different?

f**king

Right but... what is malware / software virus doing? I mean it might not be f**king but it is reproducing.

Yeah - I know - the two (f**king and reproducing) aren't the same among Humans. But social sex can be accounted for as a result of biological need (dopamine, etc.).

I don't think AI is currently enjoying anything it does (especially making muzak). I don't think it ever will, but I do think it will reach a point when it "expresses" something to Humans that we cannot distinguish from enjoyment.

So I guess... awareness is an argument from ignorance

[Aleatoriac]

You shouldn't encourage people like this. It only gets creepier when the existing stuff gets additional modules; it doesn't take much imagination to figure out when it's gonna be forte or upwards...

Yeah but will they be anthropomorphic with glowing red eyes?

Or will they be Seductive Succubi Sexbots

[Aleatoriac]

they with that known valley were erupting
it's slain, unwoken cheeses amongst wits
violently wished aside his bared ribbons
beautifully damaged below prisons

Mwa ha ha I really like this - the thing is *I cannot tell you why*
And I'm having the same kind of feeling by reading it that I have when I experience music.

WTF did you do?

saying this is nonsense is ignorant. this is meaning in quadrature, complex meaning with a real and imaginary component. you can say you deal with the real and ignore the imaginary part, but that doesn't make it go away.

We'll end up with semantic distinctions without differences at some point in these types of conversations. Probably.

You give me a good ( ) idea...

[jancivil]

unwoken cheeses
Christ, I feel pushed towards poetry criticism now.

[jancivil]

So, the algorithm that's cleverly built enough to analyze for tendencies is reductive to a surface that a machine lacking a history of experience can manage, so the music is going to be superficial by definition.

Agreed, but I must ask, what exactly is it that Humans are doing that is so different?

f**king

Right but... what is malware / software virus doing? I mean it might not be f**king but it is reproducing.

Yeah - I know - the two (f**king and reproducing) aren't the same among Humans. But social sex can be accounted for as a result of biological need (dopamine, etc.).

Psychological need. I find the reduction to dopamine etc kind of tiresome, myself. It doesn't really illuminate, it just, well reduces. I would love to be able to articulate how that's a fallacy but I have a lot of physical problems which make me stupid at this juncture...

[jancivil]

anyway, if there be a ghost in Rurik's poetry machine it must have been put there by Rurik, so 'procedural' seems less pure than it is in some rhetoric.

[Aleatoriac]

Psychological need. I find the reduction to dopamine etc kind of tiresome, myself. It doesn't really illuminate, it just, well reduces. I would love to be able to articulate how that's a fallacy but I have a lot of physical problems which make me stupid at this juncture...

Well I am THE AntiChrist, so what do you expect me to do?

Yeah I know causal reductionism fallacy... among others probably

Wait... physical problems... When I have a physical problem that makes me stupid I'm usually a) not sleeping, b) drunk, or c) enraged

Anyway. I'm not trying to claim that AI can replicate Human activities (whether emotional or logical, spiritual, psychotic) exactly.

I simply think it's a pathway to a whole lot of well-being if we augment ourselves with AI. And yeah I get off on the idea. Moreso than I do with Humans.

[jancivil]

[music] is the energy function of pitched phonemes.

is that all it is?

regions of consciousness others have no knowledge of.
the power of song connects deeply to the human psyche.

ok:
_consciousness_
_the human psyche_
vis
artificial intelligence, or at least some algorithm made to produce some language that rhymes
(and have a point-of-view? - whose?). Which is wonderful, brilliant. I can't even imagine, trog that I am.

But no, the regions of consciousness must be yours and you're using a synthesizer to convey some bits of it. Or like I used to use acid to get to. It was in my mind, not in the acid.

[woggle]

Emotional systems give rise to meaning - they are not rational systems at all. People are not rational systems (although they can use them).

Thanks for the info, I'll check that out.

I had a similar discussion with somebody recently about the fact/value "dichotomy"

My point was: the very act of either discovering or establishing facts is a value, and that value is itself a result of needs.

The conversation started as a point that without some... shall we say objective power... we couldn't know anything at all; and I was like... oh yeah? I pointed to my emotions as the underlying basis for valuing logic at all. Yeah. So what?

Well said: people are not rational systems although they can use them.

The opening to an essay I was recently commissioned to write (this is all referenced to the appropriate literature in neuroscience etc which is where my academic background is)
"Before we are born we are listeners in the womb. Even more so, we are musical listeners, taking in the pitch contours and amplitude structures of the world outside and around us as we softly dream ourselves into being . Listening takes time to develop though, anatomical structures first have to be built and neurological structures developed and tuned to the environment
The foetal listener bathes in a relatively simple auditory environment. Like traffic in the suburban distance, the regular sounds of the mother’s heartbeat, digestion and respiration sit quietly in the background. Less predictable are sounds coming from the outside world, which must first pass through the tissues and intrauterine fluids of the mother’s body before they can be heard . The mother’s body reduces their volume, particularly the volume of frequencies above 250Hz (around middle C and above). Voices, both male and female, are quite audible to the foetus, but the loudest and most distinctive sound the foetus will hear is the mother’s voice as not only does her voice come via the air, like all other external sounds, but it is also conducted directly through her body. The mother’s voice is perhaps twice the volume of all regular sounds reaching the foetus.
In utero, the mother’s voice is heard more as sound than as speech due to the filtering of the body reducing the speech signal complexity to the point where even adult listeners cannot understand the speech that reaches foetal hearing. Instead of speech, then, the foetus hears the modulated pitch of vocal phrases, presented with all the pauses, novelty and repetition of normal adult speech – but without the words and syllables .
These wordless phrases have enough information for a near term foetus to want to listen longer to speech and speech like sounds than listen to unfamiliar music, and for a newly born baby to prefer hearing human speech over synthetic speech. Similarly, newborns who have heard their mother reading or singing to them when still in the womb, prefer hearing the mother reading and singing those stories again over and above hearing those same stories and songs from anyone else. From birth, then, a baby has preferences that carry emotional significance and those preferences have been developed with proto-musical vocal sounds. More broadly, at the very first awakening of consciousness, in utero and before vision, sound is the primary conduit for the emotional signification of the external world .
"

[harryupbabble]

This is probably a dumb question but I ask because I want to educate myself... but how does anyone know how the fetus interprets those sounds? I am wondering... isn't it hard enough for people trained to make sense of data from brain scan machines to tell what an adult is thinking when, for example, they hear a bass note or whatever else? So wouldn't some kind of brain scan be required to see what is happening with a fetus brain?

[ghettosynth]

[ However, to use a generative idea to explore a particular interest that results in a piece or set of pieces that are then fixed is interesting to me, whether as a producer or consumer.

that has been my approach with software - for example to ask "How important is note order in Satie's piano music" or "what is the role of rhythm in Philip Glass" and then use statistical techniques to explore that - the method of surrogate data in particular. I just use Matlab to write everything - I am familiar with it from my days in research and it has the advantage of a huge mathematical user base sharing lots of code. If I were younger I would use Python but I couldn't be bothered learning it for my small application

Cool! I suppose that I could use R, but it's not really the way that I like to work with music and it doesn't have the right libraries for "music", per se.

[chaosWyrM]

vaguest between the powerful pouches
to your roamer its wise rider shouted
purified chargers for those unbrowned thoughts
flying sunnily from that white outlaw

feast over there from that delicious height
you were going to live during a type
you with that air haven't often been ranked
your present below it's unsweet tree spanks

from sired defenses within those voices
to her unwise monarch I was pointing
purely design those feats between those lairs
our ocean without a medal won't stare

around a mouth an attack has shifted
for the meteor you must be spinning
you will be ruminating with the scene
concluded quietly of the harmonies

they with that known valley were erupting
it's slain, unwoken cheeses amongst wits
violently wished aside his bared ribbons
beautifully damaged below prisons

saying this is nonsense is ignorant. this is meaning in quadrature, complex meaning with a real and imaginary component. you can say you deal with the real and ignore the imaginary part, but that doesn't make it go away.

that last bit is complete bs.

it is by definition meaningless nonsense. unless you are suggesting that the software that produced it did so with some sort of cognizant intent...then its 100% meaningless nonsense. you can not have meaning without intent...intent is what gives things meaning.

now...dont take that as a judgement on the content, i kinda like it...but i cant let it slide that its somehow meaningful in any way whatsoever. it is no more meaningful than any random cloud formation or group of rocks. it is the software version of singing in glossolalia...maybe its pretty....maybe a person might project some kind of meaning onto it...but really...its just random noise.

::edit::

im gonna walk the last part back...im wrong on that...singing in glossolalia has meaning...the artist is expressing something specific when they do it...that was a bad statement on my part.

[xoxos]

unwoken cheeses
Christ, I feel pushed towards poetry criticism now.

jan: slain, unwoken cheeses.

given your continued posts of ribbing, i'll PM you so you can stop

the rest of you troglodytes can booga booga if you like

[woggle]

This is probably a dumb question but I ask because I want to educate myself... but how does anyone know how the fetus interprets those sounds? I am wondering... isn't it hard enough for people trained to make sense of data from brain scan machines to tell what an adult is thinking when, for example, they hear a bass note or whatever else? So wouldn't some kind of brain scan be required to see what is happening with a fetus brain?

It's a really important question. There's a lot of ways we can tell what is happening in utero and early childhood without a brain scan. For example ultrasound of the fetus can reveal movement and that movement can be influenced by things like playing music / sound through a loudspeaker placed on the mother's abdomen. We can look at the anatomy of the ear as it develops to understand what frequencies can be heard, we can discover what language sounds can be discriminated after they pass through a mother's body and interuterine fluids to reach the fetal ear. We can do more targetted experiments with newborns and link those back to behaviour they were showing a week or so previously in the womb. Like lots of science there are lots of interlocking lines of evidence and various stories told to make sense of that evidence.

[woggle]

[ However, to use a generative idea to explore a particular interest that results in a piece or set of pieces that are then fixed is interesting to me, whether as a producer or consumer.

that has been my approach with software - for example to ask "How important is note order in Satie's piano music" or "what is the role of rhythm in Philip Glass" and then use statistical techniques to explore that - the method of surrogate data in particular. I just use Matlab to write everything - I am familiar with it from my days in research and it has the advantage of a huge mathematical user base sharing lots of code. If I were younger I would use Python but I couldn't be bothered learning it for my small application

Cool! I suppose that I could use R, but it's not really the way that I like to work with music and it doesn't have the right libraries for "music", per se.

if you are a python person there are a lot of tools here. This almost got me programming again (but failed in the end ) http://web.mit.edu/music21/