What is all that "warm" "Analog" - "cold" "digital" sound thing about?

[chk071]

So, it's like comparing a violin and a french horn, and asking which one is "warmer", and which one is "colder"...

Diva and Serum are both synthesizer, featuring more or less the same technology, even the same waveforms. So, no, it's not like comparing two completely different instruments.

Again, we are talking about synthesizers here, not about the definition of the mentioned terms in other instruments, or even acoustic instruments compared to synthesizers, or, in general, electric instruments.

[whyterabbyt]

A survey of a bunch of different listeners, with examples from different synths, processes, recording media etc. might clear it up. Or it might reveal the whole thing to be subjective, or complete bullshit. It could be something you have to be an expert to hear, or it could be something we've been conditioned into by years of marketing.

I have a suspicion that associations with "warm" or "cold" are less about what we hear and more what we believe about the technical details... and that most, if not all, of those beliefs are contradictory, irrelevant, based on false assumptions or stereotypes.

Which is warmer, tape or vinyl? A tube or a transistor? A 96kbps MP3 or a 320kbps MP3? A Game Boy or a C64? A triangle or a sine? A 12db ladder filter or a 24db ladder filter? A DX-7, a DX-7 II, FM8, or Volca FM? Serum or Diva? MIDI or CV? Monster Cable or Hosa? Wooden knobs or plastic? A 303 or a meth-addled duck?

I honestly believe that if you gave people two versions of the same synth, analogue or digital, and one was all kitted out with blue LEDs and chrome knobs, and the other was kitted out with amber LEDs and bakelite, the former would be identified as 'colder'.

[fmr]

My own, highly subjective view of what is "cold":


And of what is "warm":


Nothing to do with the instrument, just with the music itself.

[fluffy_little_something]

Well, initially they could only compare them to acoustic and electric instruments that dominated up until when synths came along

Yes, that's my point. The terms were being applied subjectively.

And maybe those Brits wanted synths to sound that way, and programmed them accordingly.

If it'd been the case that the useage of the terms came solely from the way 'those Brits' used them, I'd have said so.
But its pretty clear that Im saying that the descriptions were being used before that point in time.

Today, however, we don't compare synths to more traditional instruments, but to each other.

There's no 'however' about it, nowadays they get compared to each other and to other instruments. And the terms are still being applied subjectively, although the 'cultural baggage' of those terms has shifted.

We no longer consider synths to be instruments for emulating real instruments, but a class of instruments of their own.

There's no unified 'we' for whom that applies. Lizard Lounge has been a stape emulation of real instruments for years, as has Pianoteq etc etc. More broadly, synthetic strings, brass, and organ sounds are still used all over the place, made by synths. To many people its a thing synths are 'for.'

I don't think so. Synths (and I mean synths, not romplers) are not compared to acoustic or electric instruments anymore like about half a century ago. Unlike musicians back then we are all used to synths sounds.
Sure, Lounge Lizard does the modeling thing, but there are not many who do that. The vast majority of synth developers don't. And few people compare Sylenth1 brass to real brass, for instance. Or a Diva electric bass to a real electric bass. Or a Legend string to a real violin. If we want the real sound, we just take a rompler.

[fmr]

So, it's like comparing a violin and a french horn, and asking which one is "warmer", and which one is "colder"...

Diva and Serum are both synthesizer, featuring more or less the same technology, even the same waveforms. So, no, it's not like comparing two completely different instruments.

"Are both synthesizers"... and a violin and a french horn are both acoustic instruments . But OK, lets make it more interesting - which is warmer, a french horn or a trombone? A flute or a recorder?

featuring more or less the same technology, even the same waveforms.

Are you sure? If you mean that Serum can use saw waves and square waves, sure. But can DIVA play a wavetable? i DON'T THINK SO. Using your own words, "comparing two completely different instruments"

Again, we are talking about synthesizers here, not about the definition of the mentioned terms in other instruments, or even acoustic instruments compared to synthesizers, or, in general, electric instruments.

Are we? The question in the subject is: «What is all that "warm" "Analog" - "cold" "digital" sound thing about?» IMO, it hasn't more to do with synthesizers than it has to do with many other things. It's about personal, subjective perception, that's probably highly biased by "a priori" concepts that may have little (if anything) to do with objective, measurable qualities.

[fmr]

And few people compare Sylenth1 brass to real brass, for instance. Or a Diva electric bass to a real electric bass. Or a Legend string to a real violin. If we want the real sound, we just take a rompler.

It depends on how well they are programmed. And a rompler (or a sampler) is as much a synth as is DIVA or Sylenth1. Otherwise, you'll start to have lots of compartiments for all kinds of "electronic instruments", which is what they all are.

[fluffy_little_something]

And few people compare Sylenth1 brass to real brass, for instance. Or a Diva electric bass to a real electric bass. Or a Legend string to a real violin. If we want the real sound, we just take a rompler.

It depends on how well they are programmed. And a rompler (or a sampler) is as much a synth as is DIVA or Sylenth1. Otherwise, you'll start to have lots of compartiments for all kinds of "electronic instruments", which is what they all are.

Well, that's the point. Today most people use synths for making sounds that can't be made using conventional acoustic or electric instruments.

Go to the sound design forum and ask for tricks how to make an authentic electric bass on Sylenth1, and people will tell you to go and use a sampler if you want authenticity.
So, no, I don't think a sampler is a synth. Maybe I simply have a different definition and idea of what a synthesizer is. On Wiki they seem to agree:

"A sampler is an electronic or digital musical instrument similar in some respects to a synthesizer, but instead of generating new sounds with filters and oscillators, it uses sound recordings (or "samples") of real instrument sounds... "

The part in bold letters implies it is not a synthesizer, but a different category of instrument.

[tapiodmitriyevich]

Go to the sound design forum and ask for tricks how to make an authentic electric bass on Sylenth1, and people will tell you to go and use a sampler if you want authenticity.

Really? But that would be interesting and challenging. Or at least an authentic clap. So many people want to create uninteresting sounds (moar boom, moar supersupersuper saw), that EDM centrism, which can also be found in many instrument presets, pisses me off. Music is so interesting, but they waste time in supersaws.

[fmr]

"A sampler is an electronic or digital musical instrument similar in some respects to a synthesizer, but instead of generating new sounds with filters and oscillators, it uses sound recordings (or "samples") of real instrument sounds... "

The part in bold letters implies it is not a synthesizer, but a different category of instrument.

That definition of synth as something "generating new sounds with filters and oscillators" Is just true for subtractive synths. What about additive synths, physical modeling synths, FM synths, Phase Distortion, Wavetable synths, etc. etc.? That definition no longer applies, because it is too simplistic and reductionist.

And the first "samplers" that existed (Fairlight and Synclavier) were born as synthesizers with sampling capabilities, but synthesizers nevertheless (well, they were considered more than simply synthesizers - the Fairlight was in fact, called Computer Musical Instrument). None of them was subtractive, BTW. And what would you call something like HALion, Falcon or Kontakt? Sampler would be quite reductionist, IMO.

Wikipedia, for example, says this: "Synthesizers use various methods to generate electronic signals (sounds). Among the most popular waveform synthesis techniques are subtractive synthesis, additive synthesis, wavetable synthesis, frequency modulation synthesis, phase distortion synthesis, physical modeling synthesis and sample-based synthesis."

[fluffy_little_something]

Indeed, many are hybrids, so to speak, the lines are blurred. But I think the term synthesizer comes from synthesizing sounds, not reproducing recorded ones, which is the case with mere samplers. Else a tape machine might also be referred to as a synthesizer.

[chk071]

So, it's like comparing a violin and a french horn, and asking which one is "warmer", and which one is "colder"...

Diva and Serum are both synthesizer, featuring more or less the same technology, even the same waveforms. So, no, it's not like comparing two completely different instruments.

"Are both synthesizers"... and a violin and a french horn are both acoustic instruments . But OK, lets make it more interesting - which is warmer, a french horn or a trombone? A flute or a recorder?

A bongo is also an acoustic instrument. Yet does it have nothing in common with a piano. Synthesizers to 95% sound the same. And the rest 5% is distinguished and described by, for you, non-telling terms.

featuring more or less the same technology, even the same waveforms.

Are you sure? If you mean that Serum can use saw waves and square waves, sure.

Yes, that is the point. Of course, you wouldn't compare things which are present on the one synth, and not the other. At least, if you want to judge that the one synth sounds different to the other.

Again, we are talking about synthesizers here, not about the definition of the mentioned terms in other instruments, or even acoustic instruments compared to synthesizers, or, in general, electric instruments.

Are we? The question in the subject is: «What is all that "warm" "Analog" - "cold" "digital" sound thing about?»

Read the first post again, then you might get it.

[fmr]

Indeed, many are hybrids, so to speak, the lines are blurred. But I think the term synthesizer comes from synthesizing sounds, not reproducing recorded ones, which is the case with mere samplers. Else a tape machine might also be referred to as a synthesizer.

No sampler "merely" reproduces recorded sounds. That would be a recorder player (like a tape machine), not a sampler. That's why it is called "sample-based SYNTHESIS"

And synthesizing sounds doesn't mean only creating new sounds. It means creating complex sounds from simple elements. ANY kind of sounds, including mimicking existing ones.

Actually, a synthesist has much to learn by analysing and trying to recreated acoustic tones. Jean-Claude Risset wrote a book about this. It's "An Introductory Catalogue of Computer Synthesized Sounds" is a study book even today. He analyzed acoustic instruments, and showed how to recreate those timbres using several synthesis methods, mainly additive and FM. This was in 1969, in the very beggining of synthesis. No "warmness" involved

[whyterabbyt]

I don't think so. Synths (and I mean synths, not romplers) are not compared to acoustic or electric instruments anymore like about half a century ago. Unlike musicians back then we are all used to synths sounds.

Being used to something doesnt stop people from making comparisons between that thing and other things.

Sure, Lounge Lizard does the modeling thing, but there are not many who do that. The vast majority of synth developers don't.

So when you claim something is in 'vast majority', you get to speak for 'we', do you?

And few people compare Sylenth1 brass to real brass, for instance. Or a Diva electric bass to a real electric bass. Or a Legend string to a real violin.

How exactly would you know how many people do or dont make those comparisons? Speaking for everyone again?

In reality, when people sense something that resembles something else, comparing it to the thing it resembles is pretty much part and parcel of what our brain does; people make comparisons against familiar reference points for everything. That's why a synth brass sound is still called 'brass' even though there's no actual brass involved, the reference point is that ingrained in what it is.
If people werent intrinsically comparing a synth brass patch to the reference point of real brass sounds it wouldnt be getting called 'brass' in the first place.

[whyterabbyt]

Today most people use synths for making sounds that can't be made using conventional acoustic or electric instruments.

Yet another 'most people do what I say they do' from fluffy. Where's your evidence for that?

[fluffy_little_something]

In my view sample-based synthesis (which might also include wavetable I suppose) is not what a mere rompler/sampler does. The former is for creating new sounds, whereas the latter is for reproducing real instruments as authentically as possible. There are people who do entire classical works using romplers. For a layman it is hard to notice that it was not a live orchestra but a sound module playing.