Ableton vs Bitwig - pros/cons?

[pdxindy]

So to sum up I say Bitwig is best for experimental music... for people who dont really know what the f#ck they want and like to play rather than make purposeful music. I probably dont have as much fun creating music as others and can see how Bitwig would appeal to the many who do. Personally I dont like randomness, I dont like letting the machine do all the work, I prefer control and Live puts you more in the drivers seat, not only that but adjusts the seat and steering wheel.

Modulation, and the Bitwig modulation system is not about randomness... or letting the machine do all the work... or not knowing what you want to do.

What you are saying is the same as saying synths that have envelopes and lfo's are not for people who know what they want to do.

[chk071]

I think the OP is already brooding about his next this vs. that thread.

Of course, without demoing either Bitwig or Ableton, or giving a flying damn about the technical explanations.

Damn, so you're saying my 'essay' on previous page was in vain?

I hope not.

Hey, don't take it from me. Maybe the OP actually DOES read all this.

[pdxindy]

- native instruments: while Bitwig's Phase-4, FM-4, Polysynth, E-Drums and Drum Machine are very good, versatile and quite powerful especially when layered and made dynamic by Modulators, they're not as versatile of Live 10 Suite's offering, that's covering subtractive (Analog), FM (Operator), wavetable (Wavetable) and physically modelled (Collision, Electric, Tension) synthesis methods; also, Bitwig's Sampler is laughably underpowered compared even to Live's Simpler, not to mention Sampler

- native effects: here I think both DAWs are generally on par, with good quality and very usable effects but Live always has something extra: EQ8 is more fully-featured than EQ5 (and not just in # of bands), new Echo is more versatile than Bitwig's delays, there's no one-device multiband compressor in Bitwig (although you can make one using Multiband Splitter and 3 Dynamics devices), there's no Beat Repeater or Convolution Reverb, etc.

Bitwig's new Phase-4 I like better than anything in Live Suite. As you say, overall Live is more complete, but the huge thing for me with Bitwig devices, is that modulation is polyphonic. Live modulation is only monophonic. So with Phase-4 I can add an unlimited number of per voice envelopes or LFO's and so on. Recently Bitwig added the Unison system which is brilliant. It's like the unison engine of Dune, but much easier to use and applicable to all their instruments!

Regarding the Effects... the thing that sets Bitwig effects apart for me is the nesting of devices. The Bitwig Delays can have any device (including VST's) in the feedback path which makes them exceptionally versatile!

[pdxindy]

The one big off putting thing for me in Bitwig is not the program, which is hands down better than live for composing,but its the licence terms. Live is far better for me in this regard.

But if the licence method was acceptable,and I had the money to upgrade on an annual basis, I would go Bitwig.

I think you will find it will work out fine.

For example, I took advantage of a sale Bitwig had and purchased an upgrade for $129 (regularly $169). With it I received a code. When I use the code is up to me. My initial 12 months ran out a couple months ago, but since the maintenance updates are so far free and 2.4 isn't announced yet, I have not used the code yet. Say 2.4 is announced in 2 months and I decide to use the code then, that will mean I had 16 months not 12... and I paid $129 instead of $169.

If someone in the same position waited for 2.5 (skipping over 2.4), then assuming Bitwig follows the same upgrade pattern as last year, that would be 20 months for $129. Seems pretty reasonable cost without getting much out of date.

[pdxindy]

That's more or less my 0.02$

excellent overall summation...

A few things in addition in the plus column for me:

The Bitwig Remote Controls. You can easily make custom control pages that are either for all instances of the device or for an individual instance/preset.

Every Bitwig device can have its own set of Macros. Live you have to wrap the device in a rack.

It is easy to make default devices in Bitwig with your own set of pre-wired macros and pre-set modulators... including for VST's.

I like the Bitwig Pop-up Browser.

[bmanic]

I think the OP is already brooding about his next this vs. that thread.

Of course, without demoing either Bitwig or Ableton, or giving a flying damn about the technical explanations.

Damn, so you're saying my 'essay' on previous page was in vain?

Definitely not at all in vain! I read it with great interest even though I'm a new Live 10 Suite + Push2 user (got it together with a Push 2 for a price I couldn't say no to).

Been considering Bitwig for quite a while but due to the crazy deal I got on Live 10 I abandoned those thoughts. Still, was great reading your thoughts on it all (and as little as I know about Bitwig in it's current form, I seem to agree with pretty much everything you wrote and learned a bunch of new things too!).

Cheers!
bM

[antic604]

Bitwig's new Phase-4 I like better than anything in Live Suite. As you say, overall Live is more complete, but the huge thing for me with Bitwig devices, is that modulation is polyphonic. Live modulation is only monophonic. So with Phase-4 I can add an unlimited number of per voice envelopes or LFO's and so on. Recently Bitwig added the Unison system which is brilliant. It's like the unison engine of Dune, but much easier to use and applicable to all their instruments!

Regarding the Effects... the thing that sets Bitwig effects apart for me is the nesting of devices. The Bitwig Delays can have any device (including VST's) in the feedback path which makes them exceptionally versatile!

I have to admit I haven't really played a lot with v2.3 (and Phase-4 in particular), so you might be right there. However, Live 10 also has added Wavetable that's pretty fun and versatile as well.

And while you're right about effects (it still boggles my mind when I load some factory presets), then I meant this more about the raw effects, comparing them 1:1. In Live you can also chain stuff together, put them in rack, split the sounds, etc. so I guess in the end possibilities are pretty much very similar.

[Kinh]

So to sum up I say Bitwig is best for experimental music... for people who dont really know what the f#ck they want and like to play rather than make purposeful music. I probably dont have as much fun creating music as others and can see how Bitwig would appeal to the many who do. Personally I dont like randomness, I dont like letting the machine do all the work, I prefer control and Live puts you more in the drivers seat, not only that but adjusts the seat and steering wheel.

Modulation, and the Bitwig modulation system is not about randomness... or letting the machine do all the work... or not knowing what you want to do.

What you are saying is the same as saying synths that have envelopes and lfo's are not for people who know what they want to do.

You take an lfo, assign it to cutoff then you add and envelope for resonance then you add a randomizer on the rate of the lfo, then on top of all that you have an xy pad which you can slide between the depths of all the above just in case you still haven't found what you're looking for. Can you honestly say a user doing all of this with all these tools really knows what he wants to sound like? This is how Bitwig is designed to be used as far as mod goes. There's nothing wrong with experimenting and coming up with weird and wonderful sounds but if you use Bitwig for anything less it's probably best to stick with Live.

Look what this guy's doing...32:30.

I realize he's only showing you what can be done but the point I'm making is why do you need all this other than to make random music? It serves no other purpose. No one can say "I wanna sound this way in my head and I know that by using all this shit and modulating the hell out of everything I will get there". It's more a case of "hey, lets have some fun, roll the dice and let the machine paint this while I take a backseat".

The whole point in creating music or anything for that matter is to have control. You start with a foundation of something simple and you build on that but you should know what space to fill and how. I personally hate abstract art or anything that looks or sounds random or accidental but I've got nothing against people who are the opposite. Art is still art...I guess.

[Kinh]

The only thing that's turning me off Bitwig is clutter and it's insane and somewhat redundant modulation.

Makes me wonder if it was really designed by people who make music because people who make music tend to have a clear idea of what they wanna get out of their heads. The depth of modulation, which is vastly superior to Live to me would be ideal for random results (because of it's vastness) not for creating something that's focused, with intent. It reminds me of something like Glitchmachines or some other random-assed, roll-the-dice plugin. I dont know about you people but I have a pretty good idea of how I want things to sound and dont need modulation to inspire me or divert me elsewhere into the f#ckin' 5th dimension.

So to sum up I say Bitwig is best for experimental music... for people who dont really know what the f#ck they want and like to play rather than make purposeful music. I probably dont have as much fun creating music as others and can see how Bitwig would appeal to the many who do. Personally I dont like randomness, I dont like letting the machine do all the work, I prefer control and Live puts you more in the drivers seat, not only that but adjusts the seat and steering wheel.

Of course you don't have to use modulation or randomness in BWS and its hidden when you don't use it...Bitwig can be used exactly like Live if you configure it that way (the clip launcher is near identical), and to be fair you can use MAX in LIve and get all the crazy computer controlled randomness and modulation that you want...I just find BWS modulation simpler and easier to use! You can very simply add an extra ADSR, LFO or step sequencer to any VST you think will benefit from it!

BWS and Live are not necessarily the best choice for structured liner composition, packages like Cubase or Logic will be far better suited to the task.

I think by the end of this year (given the updates every 3 months) Bitwig will get more features that the linear DAWS have , and Live will reamin biast towards 'Live' loop playback (and there is nothing wrong with that, pick something, do it will or try to be a jack of all trades.....BWS will either go more linier or more 'expoerimental' but given the user feature requests I think it will be the former)

Yeah I realize you dont need to do random shit in it and probably has a pretty good workflow compared to others, more and more are saying dis. But I think Bitwig is a better choice than Live if you wanna venture into abstract land. It's designed that way, live (without the help of M4l) isn't.
I doubt most people would put it's modulation through it's paces anyway and just use it like Ableton or something which makes you wonder if producers or musicians really did design it.

[SLiC]

You also have to remember that Live 10 suite costs almost twice as much as BWS….you could buy a lot of fx/synths with the savings, or a couple of years subscription

If you buy Live Standard Bitwig definitely wins hands down on included fx and instruments...

If you are primarily interested in using PUSH then Live may have been the better choice (although the Bigwig PUSH mapping is pretty good), most of the updates and work from Ableton now seems to be towards their hardware integration, its a great 'Live' combination.

[SLiC]

You also have to remember that Live 10 suite costs almost twice as much as BWS….you could buy a lot of fx/synths with the savings, or a couple of years subscription

If you buy Live Standard Bitwig definitely wins hands down on included fx and instruments...

If you are primarily interested in using PUSH then Live may have been the better choice (although the Bigwig PUSH mapping is pretty good), most of the updates and work from Ableton now seems to be towards their hardware integration, its a great 'Live' combination.

[SLiC]

You also have to remember that Live 10 suite costs almost twice as much as BWS….you could buy a lot of fx/synths with the savings, or a couple of years subscription

If you buy Live Standard Bitwig definitely wins hands down on included fx and instruments...

If you are primarily interested in using PUSH then Live may have been the better choice (although the Bigwig PUSH mapping is pretty good), most of the updates and work from Ableton now seems to be towards their hardware integration, its a great 'Live' combination.

[pekbro]

I dunno, Bitwig does have more instruments than Live Standard, personally I think
the effects in Live are way better than that of Bitwig. Live is one of the few
DAWs where I will actually use the included effects tbh.

To each his own...

[SLiC]

I dunno, Bitwig does have more instruments than Live Standard, personally I think
the effects in Live are way better than that of Bitwig. Live is one of the few
DAWs where I will actually use the included effects tbh.

To each his own...

Absolutely! I almost never use built in DAW Fx due to having way to many 'other' Fx (soundtoys, eventide, Valhalla etc) that are better than the free fx in any DAW I own (Cubase, S1, BWS and Live!) but BWS FX really come in to their own as 'building blocks' with the modulators to make CV fx, midi fx and sometimes audio FX that I cant make/find any other way.


There is a great FX review here, very honest (although I disagree with AMP rating, its a great FX, just not on guitars!)

http://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/2 ... eview.html

[pdxindy]

Bitwig's new Phase-4 I like better than anything in Live Suite. As you say, overall Live is more complete, but the huge thing for me with Bitwig devices, is that modulation is polyphonic. Live modulation is only monophonic. So with Phase-4 I can add an unlimited number of per voice envelopes or LFO's and so on. Recently Bitwig added the Unison system which is brilliant. It's like the unison engine of Dune, but much easier to use and applicable to all their instruments!

I have to admit I haven't really played a lot with v2.3 (and Phase-4 in particular), so you might be right there. However, Live 10 also has added Wavetable that's pretty fun and versatile as well.

I like the new Wavetable synth for Live. I think it sounds good. My point was about the core system in Bitwig vs Live.

Wavetable has 3 Env's and 2 LFO's. You can add a M4L LFO if you want more, but it is never like it is part of the synth. It can only be global, like an additional FX.

In Bitwig, I can add an LFO or an Env and it functions the same as if it were part of the synth. It can be global, or it can be per voice. For me this is a big advantage at the core level. And if you save the device preset, the additional Env's and LFO's are automatically part of the preset.

Likewise the Unison feature in Bitwig is different. If you stack 3 voices, you can easily set one of the 3 stacked voices an octave down. Or adjust the filter cutoff of each voice separately. Because the unison function is at the DAW level, every Bitwig synth has the same capability.

These core capabilities are unique to Bitwig and add a lot of value to their instruments. And of course all the Bitwig instruments are fully MPE capable.

You cannot just compare Phase-4 with Wavetable because the framework they function in is so much more capable in Bitwig.

Another core advantage with Bitwig is the visual representation of the integrated modulation system.

Using Wavetable as an example again. It has 3 Env's and 2 LFO's. Suppose with one preset you use all of them and add a couple M4L LFO's. Between the 5 built in modulators (3 Env and 2 LFO), they are modulating say 16 parameters. The 2 M4L LFO's are modulating 5 parameters. 21 modulated parameters in total. Try looking at all of them at the same time. You cannot. It's kinda clumsy to tweak them in relation to each other.

In Bitwig, assuming a similar preset in Phase-4, you can easily see (and edit) all 21 modulations in the Inspector. Even if the Phase-4 device is fully folded, select it and you still see all the modulations in the Inspector. And if you have say a delay nested inside Phase-4, the Phase-4 filter envelope (or any modulator) can modulate the delay, and all the modulation of any nested devices would also be visible in the Inspector when you select Phase-4.

Because of the core functionality in Bitwig, Phase-4 is much more capable than it might seem just by looking at it as a standalone device. Bitwig is brilliant in this regard.