Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

[chk071]

Hoefully less makeup too.

[Aloysius]

That was around 1972 ... he's 70 now with less hair.

Pubic hair?

[deastman]

To be a "real musician" these days, you still need to play real instruments. Nothing has changed.

Then I guess Brian Eno is not a "real musician"

I think he’d be the first to agree with you. Pretty sure I’ve heard him say as much in interviews.

[KBSoundSmith]

You do know, I am sure, that 'pleasant' is relative to the person listening.

Right?

Sure, but if someone likes what I dislike, I don't think much of them, anyway
Like many music critics, they seem to be obsessed with complexity rather than appeal. That's why their verdicts have often nothing to do with what most people like.

Conversely, not all music has to be watered down for the lowest common denominator, to the point of no interest. Not everything has to be written at a 2nd grade level to avoid the appearance of "elitism." There's no sin in deep thought. Sometimes things worth saying require a stretch of the brain.

But of course, we live in a time where nuance is dead. We must always go directly to the extremes to show how "right" we are. Voted Republican? You hate blacks, women, gays, and non-Christians. Voted Democrat? You hate whites, men, straights, and Christians. There's no in between. If you don't like a genre of music, it isn't that it's merely not to taste based upon your cultural upbringing...no, it is because the other schmuck was a soulless elitist overly complicating everything...or because the schmuck is a brain-dead lazy peasant with no depth of thought.

[thecontrolcentre]

That was around 1972 ... he's 70 now with less hair.

Pubic hair?

Dunno if he's done any full frontals

[Aloysius]

[fluffy_little_something]

You do know, I am sure, that 'pleasant' is relative to the person listening.

Right?

Sure, but if someone likes what I dislike, I don't think much of them, anyway
Like many music critics, they seem to be obsessed with complexity rather than appeal. That's why their verdicts have often nothing to do with what most people like.

Conversely, not all music has to be watered down for the lowest common denominator, to the point of no interest. Not everything has to be written at a 2nd grade level to avoid the appearance of "elitism." There's no sin in deep thought. Sometimes things worth saying require a stretch of the brain.

But of course, we live in a time where nuance is dead. We must always go directly to the extremes to show how "right" we are. Voted Republican? You hate blacks, women, gays, and non-Christians. Voted Democrat? You hate whites, men, straights, and Christians. There's no in between. If you don't like a genre of music, it isn't that it's merely not to taste based upon your cultural upbringing...no, it is because the other schmuck was a soulless elitist overly complicating everything...or because the schmuck is a brain-dead lazy peasant with no depth of thought.

It is not about genres. There are some pieces of classical music I like, they appeal to me, they touch me.
Technical level or complexity has nothing to do with appeal, though.
There are bass players for instance, who are crazy fast and everything, but they forgot the function of the bass. They are trying to impress and show off.

[sleepcircle]

But of course, we live in a time where nuance is dead. We must always go directly to the extremes to show how "right" we are. Voted Republican? You hate blacks, women, gays, and non-Christians. Voted Democrat? You hate whites, men, straights, and Christians. There's no in between. If you don't like a genre of music, it isn't that it's merely not to taste based upon your cultural upbringing...no, it is because the other schmuck was a soulless elitist overly complicating everything...or because the schmuck is a brain-dead lazy peasant with no depth of thought.

that's what this whole forum topic reeks of, to me.

everyone flipping off everyone else, including MOZART of all people, who didn't do a thing to any one of you.

someone mentioned something to me from their group therapy session. "people who push other people down are trying to push themselves higher"

[chk071]

someone mentioned something to me from their group therapy session. "people who push other people down are trying to push themselves higher"

I don't know anyone who doesn't though, at least internally. I'm sure another "group therapist" will tell you that it's a natural instinct, without which no self confidence is possible. I remember a psychologist once saying that it is a good idea to imagine your boss in his underwear. Same thing really. IMO, someone who pretends he never put people down to put himself higher in his life is a hypocrite.

[fluffy_little_something]

In my view it is mere criticism. I live in a country where criticism is not welcome and it shows in the result, everyone thinks they are great even if they suck.

[sleepcircle]

writing off an entire group of people because they don't fit X arbitrary criteria is not criticism.

anyway, it's people WITHOUT self-confidence who do it the most. no self-confidence means they try to feel confidence by clawing away at other people to bring them down to 'lower than their own level' instead of being comfortable in themselves.

edit: "imagine your boss in his underwear" is not the same thing as what's happening here. no-one here has to be AFRAID of another group of people the way people can be afraid of a capricious or demeaning boss, so there's no need to "humanize them by making them funny" as a way to bring yourself back to reality.

although i guess you could say some of you might be afraid of losing your "musical legitimacy" to another group of musicians, which is really the reason for most snobbery anyway. but that's the thing, you don't NEED to be afraid—i might be making a sweeping generalization here, but most of this thread seems like an echo of the collected fear and xenophobia of different parts of the music community over the last couple centuries, lashing out ungrounded like arcs from an exposed wire.

[herodotus]

You do know, I am sure, that 'pleasant' is relative to the person listening.

Right?

Sure, but if someone likes what I dislike, I don't think much of them, anyway
Like many music critics, they seem to be obsessed with complexity rather than appeal. That's why their verdicts have often nothing to do with what most people like.

You are a silly man.

[chk071]

writing off an entire group of people because they don't fit X arbitrary criteria is not criticism.

anyway, it's people WITHOUT self-confidence who do it the most. no self-confidence means they try to feel confidence by clawing away at other people to bring them down to 'lower than their own level' instead of being comfortable in themselves.

edit: "imagine your boss in his underwear" is not the same thing as what's happening here. no-one here has to be AFRAID of another group of people the way people can be afraid of a capricious or demeaning boss, so there's no need to "humanize them by making them funny" as a way to bring yourself back to reality.

although i guess you could say some of you might be afraid of losing your "musical legitimacy" to another group of musicians, which is really the reason for most snobbery anyway. but that's the thing, you don't NEED to be afraid—i might be making a sweeping generalization here, but most of this thread seems like an echo of the collected fear and xenophobia of different parts of the music community over the last couple centuries, lashing out ungrounded like arcs from an exposed wire.

I think you read too much out of it, to be honest.

[sleepcircle]

it's possible, i'll admit—although i'm pretty sure i'm not.

[herodotus]

It should also be noted that there is plenty of reverse snobbery in music as well.

Many hipsters and rock journalists have nothing but contempt for musicians who practice a lot and have conspicuous technical ability.

People can get very tribal about their musical taste.