Calling All Big Band Music Experts

[wagtunes]

Only Sample/Audio modeling will give you realistic instruments with any flexibility - you can do any style, not only jazz (it's also the only thing on the market that can do realistic Balkan brass type music)... All these multi-gb sample libraries sound fake to me, I'm sorry. It may be pain in the ass to learn them, but it's worth it even if you use them only as lead instruments, because nothing is closer to the real thing than them.

Sorry, don't want something that's a pain in the ass to learn. What I've been recommended by Jancivil sounds good enough to me (I can't tell the difference) and IMO is just as good as sample modeling. And I guarantee in a mix, you couldn't tell the difference anyway with all the processing done on these things. Certainly my partner isn't going to tell the difference nor the people in the audience watching the play.

[jancivil]

One can't expect to form viable ensembles from solo instruments anyway.

"Only Sample/Audio modeling will give you realistic instruments with any flexibility"

Really? Is that a fact. I have experience with both Mr T Sax and the tenor from WarpIV. I've used the two side by side (a different tone and I wanted to suss the former's portamento (technically more of a gliss; also the SM instrument for some reason responds well to pitch bend; modeling is the diff I suppose.) and get familiarity. Now, this latter has seen some real improvements since the one I bought some years ago, particularly in triggering and controlling dynamic swells. And if you have not looked into this, which I think you haven't at all, you can't know how flexible it is or isn't.

There are things which you can't get from simply editing a (sample) library, in all kinds of music; gestures. A proper doit; idiomatic falls and 'upbeats'. These things Dr Steinman touches on in the video, they're sampled for a reason. It's the same reason VSL samples mordents and so forth. It's also the reason developers do interval legato.

If you don't have it in the AudioModeling SWAM, it doesn't happen. I can't know because I didn't update to SWAM. I can speak to this, though, they weren't recording gestures when it was SampleModeling Mr T Tenor Sax. Nor with their trumpet which I used to have.

[anomandaris1]

One can't expect to form viable ensembles from solo instruments anyway.

"Only Sample/Audio modeling will give you realistic instruments with any flexibility"

Really? Is that a fact. I have experience with both Mr T Sax and the tenor from WarpIV. I've used the two side by side (a different tone and I wanted to suss the former's portamento (technically more of a gliss; also the SM instrument for some reason responds well to pitch bend; modeling is the diff I suppose.) and get familiarity. Now, this latter has seen some real improvements since the one I bought some years ago, particularly in triggering and controlling dynamic swells. And if you have not looked into this, which I think you haven't at all, you can't know how flexible it is or isn't.

There are things which you can't get from simply editing a (sample) library, in all kinds of music; gestures. A proper doit; idiomatic falls and 'upbeats'. These things Dr Steinman touches on in the video, they're sampled for a reason. It's the same reason VSL samples mordents and so forth. It's also the reason developers do interval legato.

If you don't have it in the AudioModeling SWAM, it doesn't happen. I can't know because I didn't update to SWAM. I can speak to this, though, they weren't recording gestures when it was SampleModeling Mr T Tenor Sax. Nor with their trumpet which I used to have.

You can make make your own gestures. The thing is that it will probably take too much time fiddling with midi CC automations.
I'm sorry, jancivil, but my sister was playing trumpet in some school brass band and I've listened to more brass than I would have liked during my life. I've watched some of Steinman's "The Difference Between Good & Great Sample Libraries with Dr. Jeff Steinman " on youtube and it sounded fake (to me).
But like wagtunes said: it's not like anyone will care or will notice it. I don't care too. The most important thing is how good the composition is. All these libraries may be not the same thing as real instrument, but will do the job.
The main question was what's the best instrument - there are guys on vi-control that have used S./A. modeling instruments for the most realistic mockups I've ever heard, building ensembles from single instruments; I admit that I wouldn't have the nerves to go through this.

[wagtunes]

I had to return to this thread because this just came out.

http://www.vir2.com/instruments/mojo-2- ... r2em102518

Sounds fine to me and the intro offer is $425.

So let me just cut to the chase.

Jancivil, the product that you recommended me by that doctor guy (forget his name) is $1299 if I just get the instruments I need and leave out the bass and guitars.

Do you hear $900 worth of difference between these two products? From the demos I listened to it "seems" Mojo 2 should be able to give me a big band sound though, unfortunately, there are no big band tracks among their demos.

I don't want to spend nearly $1,000 more than I have to if I don't have to.

So what am I missing here?

The intro is good until November 6.

[Septimon]

Have you considered to actually record a semi-Professional big band?
Here in Berlin we have at least 5 non-professional Big Bands that play at an Amazing level. If you are willing to spend hundreds of dollars, you might spend them on a local mobile studio team. you might get a better result with the real thing.
If this is an option, you can contact me, i could help making a "first contact".

[wagtunes]

Have you considered to actually record a semi-Professional big band?
Here in Berlin we have at least 5 non-professional Big Bands that play at an Amazing level. If you are willing to spend hundreds of dollars, you might spend them on a local mobile studio team. you might get a better result with the real thing.
If this is an option, you can contact me, i could help making a "first contact".

For all the music I'm going to make, it would cost me 10s of thousands of dollars. No thanks.

[Septimon]

For all the music I'm going to make, it would cost me 10s of thousands of dollars. No thanks.

I suggested to ask semi-professionals. A decent non-professional Big Band might be interested to support your project for a small donation or without taking money at all but just because they like to play good music. That was my point.
About that vir2 mojo: while some of the sounds may work for a lick in a pop arrangement (and i admit the demos are among the better ones i heard): Played solo, you can tell it's not a proper saxophone. I think wind instruments, especially saxophones are very hard (impossible) to emulate and you can hear that.
You might also consider to at least record solo parts and mix them with the sampled stuff.
I'm really interested in the results anyhow. You might post some demos here?

[wagtunes]

For all the music I'm going to make, it would cost me 10s of thousands of dollars. No thanks.

I suggested to ask semi-professionals. A decent non-professional Big Band might be interested to support your project for a small donation or without taking money at all but just because they like to play good music. That was my point.
About that vir2 mojo: while some of the sounds may work for a lick in a pop arrangement (and i admit the demos are among the better ones i heard): Played solo, you can tell it's not a proper saxophone. I think wind instruments, especially saxophones are very hard (impossible) to emulate and you can hear that.
You might also consider to at least record solo parts and mix them with the sampled stuff.
I'm really interested in the results anyhow. You might post some demos here?

I'm going to be doing primarily big band ensemble parts so I'm not worried about solo instruments so much. Besides, Joe Schmo out in the street isn't going to tell the difference between a real sax and a sampled one anyway.

But none of that was the point. My point was, do I need to spend $1,300 on WarpIV or is Mojo 2 at $425 (on sale) good enough. Since neither one is the real thing, it won't be good enough for you anyway. I just want to know what I can get away with.

[jancivil]

Yeah, a simple matter for me of you get what you pay for in a 1:1 type of correspondence in this case. If you want to argue yourself into something based on your economics, who can blame you really but while you think the average guy on the street can't tell that's not your client, so it's a matter of satisfying the job and maybe getting a callback or not. I basically agree with the above as to the Vir2 product (although the notion of hiring a group instead strikes me as ).

[jancivil]

One can't expect to form viable ensembles from solo instruments anyway.

"Only Sample/Audio modeling will give you realistic instruments with any flexibility"

Really? Is that a fact. I have experience with both Mr T Sax and the tenor from WarpIV. I've used the two side by side (a different tone and I wanted to suss the former's portamento (technically more of a gliss; also the SM instrument for some reason responds well to pitch bend; modeling is the diff I suppose.) and get familiarity. Now, this latter has seen some real improvements since the one I bought some years ago, particularly in triggering and controlling dynamic swells. And if you have not looked into this, which I think you haven't at all, you can't know how flexible it is or isn't.

There are things which you can't get from simply editing a (sample) library, in all kinds of music; gestures. A proper doit; idiomatic falls and 'upbeats'. These things Dr Steinman touches on in the video, they're sampled for a reason. It's the same reason VSL samples mordents and so forth. It's also the reason developers do interval legato.

If you don't have it in the AudioModeling SWAM, it doesn't happen. I can't know because I didn't update to SWAM. I can speak to this, though, they weren't recording gestures when it was SampleModeling Mr T Tenor Sax. Nor with their trumpet which I used to have.

You can make make your own gestures. The thing is that it will probably take too much time fiddling with midi CC automations.
I'm sorry, jancivil, but my sister was playing trumpet in some school brass band and I've listened to more brass than I would have liked during my life. I've watched some of Steinman's "The Difference Between Good & Great Sample Libraries with Dr. Jeff Steinman " on youtube and it sounded fake (to me).
But like wagtunes said: it's not like anyone will care or will notice it. I don't care too. The most important thing is how good the composition is. All these libraries may be not the same thing as real instrument, but will do the job.
The main question was what's the best instrument - there are guys on vi-control that have used S./A. modeling instruments for the most realistic mockups I've ever heard, building ensembles from single instruments; I admit that I wouldn't have the nerves to go through this.

Really, your sister played trumpet in school band is part of promoting yourself as the authority in this appeal to authority? The other part being "I've listened to more brass than I will have liked". Yeah, you're the go-to in this thread aren't you.

To try and create the gestures I'm talking about would be a waste of time. You actually kind of acknowledged waste of time, but you want to argue the point? In order to be right about asserting that product?*
You saw that somebody on an internet forum did something? Did _you_ create doits and falls, etc? I am familiar with the SampleModeling instruments, having worked with them. As I have already stated. For instance I have created some things using the gliss (they call it portamento but it steps actually, so the precise term is glissando), I have extensively exploited the Mr T in my music. It's pretty time-consuming (or one is a total virtuoso with multiple controllers in real-time and knows the library like it's second nature); I expect wags is not going to have that kind of time doing the job. It's a solo instrument; when I needed a really elaborate solo I used WarpIV. Because gestures. And my use of such is informed by the fact I have worked extensively with top drawer saxophonists. I actually am not bullshitting. There is a reason developers like Steinman and VSL include doits or graces, mordent, etc. It's the actual dynamic performance of the gesture, the actual response of the instrument. This is like trying to do legato when you don't have the intervals recorded as legato.

It does not seem you know from the gestures, really or you would easily have grasped the point. It's clear you're not working from experience but you're sure you know. Dunning-Kruger rules ok.

*: "The main question was what's the best instrument" - No, the question was what's the best big band library. SampleModeling is not that at all. To try and build a band out of solo sample libraries is a singularly bad idea. That you do not grasp this was a sure sign you're in over your head. You ran right into two walls.
Apologies for mixing metaphors, I probably need some caffeine.

[kgdrum]

As a BBB lite user,I can tell you BBB lite is probably the library I most regret buying and I got in a rare sale.
The owner Yuval takes years to update,his pricing is not realistic and imo the libraries are dated and sound atrocious.

Mojo 2 looks and sounds amazing to me! If I had the funds I’d buy this ASAP this looks to be a real step forward w/ horn section libraries.

[wagtunes]

Yeah, a simple matter for me of you get what you pay for in a 1:1 type of correspondence in this case. If you want to argue yourself into something based on your economics, who can blame you really but while you think the average guy on the street can't tell that's not your client, so it's a matter of satisfying the job and maybe getting a callback or not. I basically agree with the above as to the Vir2 product (although the notion of hiring a group instead strikes me as ).

Just to make sure we're clear. So based on what you heard. Mojo 2 is not even close to WarpIV.

[jancivil]

Mojo 2 sound fake af to me, frankly. I'm talking about my impression of it in ensemble, I didn't explore it, it immediate struck me as aw hell no.

Big band: my father was an absolute fanatic, it's the music that was in my house growing up, he would show me different arrangers in comparison to others he knew, he wanted me to become a screech trumpet player (after Maynard Ferguson), I'm steeped in the sound.
When I was living with musicians in my free improv phase, other things were happening including a big band which I wrote charts for. Happening charts.
It's not what I do today by a long ways, but this is def within my wheelhouse as a musician.


No, the Steinman product priced at 13 to 5 per the Mojo 2 is a good deal IME.

[jancivil]

Also just to be clear about my remarks, the biggest problem (which seems obvious) with hiring a group is recording the group.

[wagtunes]

Mojo 2 sound fake af to me, frankly. I'm talking about my impression of it in ensemble, I didn't explore it, it immediate struck me as aw hell no.

Big band: my father was an absolute fanatic, it's the music that was in my house growing up, he would show me different arrangers in comparison to others he knew, he wanted me to become a screech trumpet player (after Maynard Ferguson), I'm steeped in the sound.
When I was living with musicians in my free improv phase, other things were happening including a big band which I wrote charts for. Happening charts.
It's not what I do today by a long ways, but this is def within my wheelhouse as a musician.


No, the Steinman product priced at 13 to 5 per the Mojo 2 is a good deal IME.

Okay, I trust your opinion. You didn't steer me wrong with VSL. I am so glad I got it. I almost never use EWQL anymore.

Steinman never runs a sale does he? I'm asking because Black Friday and Christmas are coming up but if I'm waiting for something that's never going to happen, just let me know.