Is it worth learning all music theory

[pekbro]

My brain is usually ok at doing that stuff for me, as well as things like tuning and quantization. Same with color theory, studying it would just over complicate things for me.

[telecode]

Hello, I've been learning music theory at school for the past 5 years, currently level 7 out of 10 referring to the Canadian system. I was wondering what more could I learn in those other 3 levels.

all depends what you want to do. if you want to get into a faculty of music program you need RCM level 8 at least. why would you want to enroll in a music program? well, it could lead to teaching music. it could lead to music therapy. it could lead to music composition for computer games, tv shows, film e.t.c. the sky is limitless.

[hersoot]

Music theory is great for approaching and understanding what musical tools composers have created in their compositions. Every age of music historically has had it own "rules" or stylistic similarities.

Will it help you create music?
Maybe, but it isn't necessary.

Will it help you figure out that really smooth chord progression that you love; allowing you to break it down into its component parts so you can use that knowledge in your own music going forward?
It can definitely help you with that.

I loved studying music theory, I use it whenever I'm trying to understand a new style or sound, but I've had lots of friends who didn't even know what chords/scales they were playing, but were amazing musicians just playing by ear! It was just tricky getting them onto the same page as everyone else and they ultimately learned the basics, which is really what's important.

If you like it, keep at it! Otherwise, you probably know what you need to now. Either way have fun!

Tl;Dr - Music theory is like any tool in the art world, do you need it? No. Can it help you? That's entirely up to you.

Nicely put, nicely said.

[ChameleonMusic]

yeah, i was winding you up

Surely not!

although, ive always preferred the idea, that rather than it being used at creation, it comes in to explain whats happened.

Yeah, I get that, but I think at the point of creation it's NOT really there consciously most of the time...not with me, anyway...and I think i can safely say that I'm stuffed full of decades of music theory!

i dont "use" it in the sense that i dont think things through, i just see what happens.

Yep, exactly how it should be at it's best quite often! The knowledge is there in the background and still informs you (at least to some extent) when you 'go with the flow'.

obviously there will be unconscious use, even without studying

That's how a lot of basic music theory is absorbed by people (kids in particular)...by just 'doing' music and making decisions!

Shit...what were we talking about...late over here...

"Time for Bed" said Zebedee!

[ChameleonMusic]

My brain is usually ok at doing that stuff for me, as well as things like tuning and quantization. Same with color theory, studying it would just over complicate things for me.

Yeah, get that, but...

tuning and quantization

just the use of those words means you've got some music theory dude!

You may have picked it up by simply 'doing' (and that's 100% fine) but it's still musical knowledge!

[ChameleonMusic]

Music theory is great for approaching and understanding what musical tools composers have created in their compositions. Every age of music historically has had it own "rules" or stylistic similarities.

I understand where you're coming from, but your definition of music theory is too narrow here for me!

Will it help you create music?Maybe, but it isn't necessary.

Wider definition of what music theory is...Yes, it is crucial, if only at a basic level. Meaningful music cannot be created without it (unless by utterly random chance of course)

Will it help you figure out that really smooth chord progression that you love

If someone has created a chord progression (whether they can name it as such or not) they are using music theory.

I've had lots of friends who didn't even know what chords/scales they were playing, but were amazing musicians just playing by ear!

If they were playing scales and chords successfully and effectively then they had absorbed and practically applied music theory by experimenting at length on their instruments! Nobody has ever been able to just 'play by ear' without lots of effort and practise...and that's where they work out some aspects of music theory for themselves.

The issue here is the definition of music theory, maybe?

I feel that some have a very narrow, traditional view of it that doesn't encompass what it means to many people across the world!

Way back when...spent a number of months performing with a traditional Balinese Gamelan orchestra....

Nothing written down, no reading of music, no formal training as such for those players but the breadth and depth of their musical knowledge was extraordinary - all absorbed by just doing!

[ChameleonMusic]

Music theory is great for approaching and understanding what musical tools composers have created in their compositions. Every age of music historically has had it own "rules" or stylistic similarities.

I understand where you're coming from, but your definition of music theory is too narrow here for me!

Will it help you create music?Maybe, but it isn't necessary.

Wider definition of what is music theory...Yes, it is crucial, if only at a basic level. Meaningful music cannot be created without it (unless by utterly random chance of course)

Will it help you figure out that really smooth chord progression that you love

If someone has created a chord progression (whether they can name it as such or not) they are using music theory.

I've had lots of friends who didn't even know what chords/scales they were playing, but were amazing musicians just playing by ear!

If they were playing scales and chords successfully and effectively then they had absorbed and practically applied music theory by experimenting at length on their instruments! Nobody has ever been able to just 'play by ear' without lots of effort and practise...and that's where they work out some aspects of music theory for themselves.

The issue here is the definition of music theory, maybe?

I feel that some have a very narrow, traditional view of it that doesn't encompass what it means to many people across the world!

Way back when...spent a number of months performing with a traditional Balinese Gamelan orchestra....

Nothing written down, no reading of music, no formal training as such for those players but the breadth and depth of their musical knowledge was extraordinary - all absorbed by just doing!

[pekbro]

If they were playing scales and chords successfully and effectively then they had absorbed and practically applied music theory by experimenting at length on their instruments! Nobody has ever been able to just 'play by ear' without lots of effort and practise...and that's where they work out some aspects of music theory for themselves.

I dunno if I agree with that, some people can learn a song completely and accurately just
by hearing it once and then proceed to play it perfectly well. Likely even on an instrument
they have never practiced with before.

But definitely I agree that you can apply it without realizing it.

[ChameleonMusic]

If they were playing scales and chords successfully and effectively then they had absorbed and practically applied music theory by experimenting at length on their instruments! Nobody has ever been able to just 'play by ear' without lots of effort and practise...and that's where they work out some aspects of music theory for themselves.

I dunno if I agree with that, some people can learn a song completely and accurately just
by hearing it once and then proceed to play it perfectly well. Likely even on an instrument
they have never practiced with before.

But definitely I agree that you can apply it without realizing it.

some people can learn a song completely and accurately just
by hearing it once and then proceed to play it perfectly well.

Agreed...you're debating with one of them at the moment!

For me it's very much a skill I've refined over the years with lots of practise...always had a very good musical memory, but learnt to apply it better as my knowledge improved.

...Likely even on an instrument they have never practiced with before.

Seriously, you think people can do this?

So they listen to a song once and commit it to musical memory (fair enough, I can do that pretty well) and then they go to a musical instrument that they've NEVER played before and immediately, without any knowledge of how to play the instrument reproduce the song they've just heard!

I don't think so!

Quick old musical fart anecdote:

Me and my lifelong friend Adrian at the age of 8/9...

Both loved playing the old piano in the corner of the primary school music room - breaks, lunches everyday. messed around with no prior knowledge creating narrative soundscapes and little tunes to represent characters in stories etc...no real idea what we were doing, but it was fun!

One day a teacher plays a simple little 3 note tune on the piano...

Adrian walks up from behind the piano and plays the same 3 notes exactly!
Teacher is amazed and tests him - he gets it right every time...even up to 6 or 7 notes, no problem...bashing out the notes with one finger on each hand.

"But I can do that as well Miss" I say, but you'll have to show me the first note you played each time...she does and I get them right up to 3 or 4 notes...few little slips beyond that.

I know now that I had an excellent sense of what is known as 'relative pitch' - as long as I knew which note you were starting on I could follow the pattern you were playing in terms of pitch

Adrian had 'perfect pitch' - he just KNEW where the notes were on that piano keyboard instinctively....no names for them or anything like that yet!

Teacher plays Adrian a little pop song - two hands together and asks him if 'gets' all the notes in that as well (I'm well out of my depth by now)...

YES! he says, but also adds that he just doesn't know yet how to move his fingers on the piano to play it all.

3 years later after having weekly, formal piano (and theory) lessons, Adrian now has grade 8 distinction and the technique to play pretty much anything he hears from a simple pop sing to Lizt and Rachmaninoff! He still finds it all fun now at nearly 60! Musical knowledge has not constrained him, stunted his creativity or turned him off music in anyway whatsoever....just gave him more musical understanding and more musical options...some he used...some he didn't!

Anyone (however good a musician they are) who tells you that they just sat at a piano / picked up a guitar or clarinet etc for the VERY first time and could play so fluently that they could replay a song they'd just heard is a massive BS merchant!

[risome]

With electronic music not necessarily but it can help speed up your workflow.It certainly will not be detrimental.

[pekbro]

If they were playing scales and chords successfully and effectively then they had absorbed and practically applied music theory by experimenting at length on their instruments! Nobody has ever been able to just 'play by ear' without lots of effort and practise...and that's where they work out some aspects of music theory for themselves.

I dunno if I agree with that, some people can learn a song completely and accurately just
by hearing it once and then proceed to play it perfectly well. Likely even on an instrument
they have never practiced with before.

But definitely I agree that you can apply it without realizing it.

some people can learn a song completely and accurately just
by hearing it once and then proceed to play it perfectly well.

Agreed...you're debating with one of them at the moment!

For me it's very much a skill I've refined over the years with lots of practise...always had a very good musical memory, but learnt to apply it better as my knowledge improved.

...Likely even on an instrument they have never practiced with before.

Seriously, you think people can do this?

So they listen to a song once and commit it to musical memory (fair enough, I can do that pretty well) and then they go to a musical instrument that they've NEVER played before and immediately, without any knowledge of how to play the instrument reproduce the song they've just heard!

I don't think so!

Quick old musical fart anecdote:

Me and my lifelong friend Adrian at the age of 8/9...

Both loved playing the old piano in the corner of the primary school music room - breaks, lunches everyday. messed around with no prior knowledge creating narrative soundscapes and little tunes to represent characters in stories etc...no real idea what we were doing, but it was fun!

One day a teacher plays a simple little 3 note tune on the piano...

Adrian walks up from behind the piano and plays the same 3 notes exactly!
Teacher is amazed and tests him - he gets it right every time...even up to 6 or 7 notes, no problem...bashing out the notes with one finger on each hand.

"But I can do that as well Miss" I say, but you'll have to show me the first note you played each time...she does and I get them right up to 3 or 4 notes...few little slips beyond that.

I know now that I had an excellent sense of what is known as 'relative pitch' - as long as I knew which note you were starting on I could follow the pattern you were playing in terms of pitch

Adrian had 'perfect pitch' - he just KNEW where the notes were on that piano keyboard instinctively....no names for them or anything like that yet!

Teacher plays Adrian a little pop song - two hands together and asks him if 'gets' all the notes in that as well (I'm well out of my depth by now)...

YES! he says, but also adds that he just doesn't know yet how to move his fingers on the piano to play it all.

3 years later after having weekly, formal piano (and theory) lessons, Adrian now has grade 8 distinction and the technique to play pretty much anything he hears from a simple pop sing to Lizt and Rachmaninoff! He still finds it all fun now at nearly 60! Musical knowledge has not constrained him, stunted his creativity or turned him off music in anyway whatsoever....just gave him more musical understanding and more musical options...some he used...some he didn't!

Anyone (however good a musician they are) who tells you that they just sat at a piano / picked up a guitar or clarinet etc for the VERY first time and could play so fluently that they could replay a song they'd just heard is a massive BS merchant!

Well whatever, personally I think you underestimate how far a persons natural aptitude for things
like art and music can extend.

[ChameleonMusic]

If they were playing scales and chords successfully and effectively then they had absorbed and practically applied music theory by experimenting at length on their instruments! Nobody has ever been able to just 'play by ear' without lots of effort and practise...and that's where they work out some aspects of music theory for themselves.

I dunno if I agree with that, some people can learn a song completely and accurately just
by hearing it once and then proceed to play it perfectly well. Likely even on an instrument
they have never practiced with before.

But definitely I agree that you can apply it without realizing it.

some people can learn a song completely and accurately just
by hearing it once and then proceed to play it perfectly well.

Agreed...you're debating with one of them at the moment!

For me it's very much a skill I've refined over the years with lots of practise...always had a very good musical memory, but learnt to apply it better as my knowledge improved.

...Likely even on an instrument they have never practiced with before.

Seriously, you think people can do this?

So they listen to a song once and commit it to musical memory (fair enough, I can do that pretty well) and then they go to a musical instrument that they've NEVER played before and immediately, without any knowledge of how to play the instrument reproduce the song they've just heard!

I don't think so!

Quick old musical fart anecdote:

Me and my lifelong friend Adrian at the age of 8/9...

Both loved playing the old piano in the corner of the primary school music room - breaks, lunches everyday. messed around with no prior knowledge creating narrative soundscapes and little tunes to represent characters in stories etc...no real idea what we were doing, but it was fun!

One day a teacher plays a simple little 3 note tune on the piano...

Adrian walks up from behind the piano and plays the same 3 notes exactly!
Teacher is amazed and tests him - he gets it right every time...even up to 6 or 7 notes, no problem...bashing out the notes with one finger on each hand.

"But I can do that as well Miss" I say, but you'll have to show me the first note you played each time...she does and I get them right up to 3 or 4 notes...few little slips beyond that.

I know now that I had an excellent sense of what is known as 'relative pitch' - as long as I knew which note you were starting on I could follow the pattern you were playing in terms of pitch

Adrian had 'perfect pitch' - he just KNEW where the notes were on that piano keyboard instinctively....no names for them or anything like that yet!

Teacher plays Adrian a little pop song - two hands together and asks him if 'gets' all the notes in that as well (I'm well out of my depth by now)...

YES! he says, but also adds that he just doesn't know yet how to move his fingers on the piano to play it all.

3 years later after having weekly, formal piano (and theory) lessons, Adrian now has grade 8 distinction and the technique to play pretty much anything he hears from a simple pop sing to Lizt and Rachmaninoff! He still finds it all fun now at nearly 60! Musical knowledge has not constrained him, stunted his creativity or turned him off music in anyway whatsoever....just gave him more musical understanding and more musical options...some he used...some he didn't!

Anyone (however good a musician they are) who tells you that they just sat at a piano / picked up a guitar or clarinet etc for the VERY first time and could play so fluently that they could replay a song they'd just heard is a massive BS merchant!

Well whatever, personally I think you underestimate how far a persons natural aptitude for things
like art and music can extend.

Maybe...maybe not?

32 years as a successful teacher and lecturer in Music and Music Technology + nearly 40 years as a professional composer (and performer) working with 1000s of musicians along the way suggests maybe not, but I think we can agree to differ in our view here...nothing wrong with that in life!

Natural aptitude - yeah, it plays it's important part, obviously... but just wondering why my friend Jenny the professional violinist with one of the UK's leading orchestras practises for between 3 - 5 hours, 6 days a week? Maybe she should just leave it all to natural aptitude and see how long her job lasts?

I've had this discussion many times before and some people do seem to have this strong, immovable view regarding natural talent / aptitude in the all the Arts...all the people I've taught and / or worked with have simply built on a platform of a certain amount of talent by working bloody hard over many years! Music. Art, Dance, Scuplture..whatever...the more effort you put in, it's likely you will get more reward out of it most of the time...that is very much what I have seen again and again and again and again.

Bach, Mozart, Ravi Shankar, Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, Lady Gaga, Beyonce - natural aptitude....well yeah! But they worked like f#ck day after day, week after week, year after year to build up their skills and knowledge!

[pekbro]

If they were playing scales and chords successfully and effectively then they had absorbed and practically applied music theory by experimenting at length on their instruments! Nobody has ever been able to just 'play by ear' without lots of effort and practise...and that's where they work out some aspects of music theory for themselves.

I dunno if I agree with that, some people can learn a song completely and accurately just
by hearing it once and then proceed to play it perfectly well. Likely even on an instrument
they have never practiced with before.

But definitely I agree that you can apply it without realizing it.

some people can learn a song completely and accurately just
by hearing it once and then proceed to play it perfectly well.

Agreed...you're debating with one of them at the moment!

For me it's very much a skill I've refined over the years with lots of practise...always had a very good musical memory, but learnt to apply it better as my knowledge improved.

...Likely even on an instrument they have never practiced with before.

Seriously, you think people can do this?

So they listen to a song once and commit it to musical memory (fair enough, I can do that pretty well) and then they go to a musical instrument that they've NEVER played before and immediately, without any knowledge of how to play the instrument reproduce the song they've just heard!

I don't think so!

Quick old musical fart anecdote:

Me and my lifelong friend Adrian at the age of 8/9...

Both loved playing the old piano in the corner of the primary school music room - breaks, lunches everyday. messed around with no prior knowledge creating narrative soundscapes and little tunes to represent characters in stories etc...no real idea what we were doing, but it was fun!

One day a teacher plays a simple little 3 note tune on the piano...

Adrian walks up from behind the piano and plays the same 3 notes exactly!
Teacher is amazed and tests him - he gets it right every time...even up to 6 or 7 notes, no problem...bashing out the notes with one finger on each hand.

"But I can do that as well Miss" I say, but you'll have to show me the first note you played each time...she does and I get them right up to 3 or 4 notes...few little slips beyond that.

I know now that I had an excellent sense of what is known as 'relative pitch' - as long as I knew which note you were starting on I could follow the pattern you were playing in terms of pitch

Adrian had 'perfect pitch' - he just KNEW where the notes were on that piano keyboard instinctively....no names for them or anything like that yet!

Teacher plays Adrian a little pop song - two hands together and asks him if 'gets' all the notes in that as well (I'm well out of my depth by now)...

YES! he says, but also adds that he just doesn't know yet how to move his fingers on the piano to play it all.

3 years later after having weekly, formal piano (and theory) lessons, Adrian now has grade 8 distinction and the technique to play pretty much anything he hears from a simple pop sing to Lizt and Rachmaninoff! He still finds it all fun now at nearly 60! Musical knowledge has not constrained him, stunted his creativity or turned him off music in anyway whatsoever....just gave him more musical understanding and more musical options...some he used...some he didn't!

Anyone (however good a musician they are) who tells you that they just sat at a piano / picked up a guitar or clarinet etc for the VERY first time and could play so fluently that they could replay a song they'd just heard is a massive BS merchant!

Well whatever, personally I think you underestimate how far a persons natural aptitude for things
like art and music can extend.

Maybe...maybe not?

32 years as a successful teacher and lecturer in Music and Music Technology + nearly 40 years as a professional composer (and performer) working with 1000s of musicians along the way suggests maybe not, but I think we can agree to differ in our view here...nothing wrong with that in life!

Natural aptitude - yeah, it plays it's important part, obviously... but just wondering why my friend Jenny the professional violinist with one of the UK's leading orchestras practises for between 3 - 5 hours, 6 days a week? Maybe she should just leave it all to natural aptitude and see how long her job lasts?

I've had this discussion many times before and some people do seem to have this strong, immovable view regarding natural talent / aptitude in the all the Arts...all the people I've taught and / or worked with have simply built on a platform of a certain amount of talent by working bloody hard over many years! Music. Art, Dance, Scuplture..whatever...the more effort you put in, it's likely you will get more reward out of it most of the time...that is very much what I have seen again and again and again and again.

Bach, Mozart, Ravi Shankar, Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, Lady Gaga, Beyonce - natural aptitude....well yeah! But they worked like f#ck day after day, week after week, year after year to build up their skills and knowledge!

Certainly you have the musical experience on me it sounds like, though I do personally know some pretty successful musicians as well, and I can say that your ideas about how they work are not
universal. A fact that has been a minor frustration for me for many years actually.

Anyway, agreeing to disagree seems prudent.

-Cheers

[Digitaldawn]

Plenty of great music has been composed without music theory mastery. Hans Zimmer, Deadmau5 to name a couple. They both just play with midi notes till they find what they like.

[Melkor]

Deadmaus - I remember:

Bsus2 Dmaj7 Gmaj7
F# Fm7 Gmaj7

...something like that
Anyway, nice progression imho.

Hans Zimmer composed those Phrygian vocals on the intro credits to Gladiator, and doesn't know his theory chops? I find that very hard to believe.