DAW: Which is Best for Sample-Based Music Production?

[licasto2]

MPC X

[machinesworking]

IMO and that is all this sort of argument is, opinion, Live has the most immediate approach to sample mangling. You record something, trim it, set a tempo if needed, then you can immediately start in on pitch and time manipulation of that sample, add FX, flatten it and go. The whole interface is designed around using the clips grid as a sampler, that's exactly how I used it at first. The fact that there are dozens of 8x8 Clip grid control surfaces set up to work with Live (and now Bitwig, Logic, and DP), that's a testament to the concept of samples as the basis of a song, whether as loops or one shots.

Cubase can verbatim do

You record something, trim it, set a tempo if needed, then you can immediately start in on pitch and time manipulation of that sample, add FX, flatten it and go.

You left out the part in bold. Live is basically a sampler, with Cubase etc. you reach for plug ins to fill that role, Live itself is the sampler. I'm done. You're wrong from the beginning, Cubase is a a DAW with a few plug in samplers, Live is a loop oriented DAW that behaves like a sampler. That you're arguing against that is just...

[sleepypoos]

IMO and that is all this sort of argument is, opinion, Live has the most immediate approach to sample mangling. You record something, trim it, set a tempo if needed, then you can immediately start in on pitch and time manipulation of that sample, add FX, flatten it and go. The whole interface is designed around using the clips grid as a sampler, that's exactly how I used it at first. The fact that there are dozens of 8x8 Clip grid control surfaces set up to work with Live (and now Bitwig, Logic, and DP), that's a testament to the concept of samples as the basis of a song, whether as loops or one shots.

Cubase can verbatim do

You record something, trim it, set a tempo if needed, then you can immediately start in on pitch and time manipulation of that sample, add FX, flatten it and go.

You left out the part in bold. Live is basically a sampler, with Cubase etc. you reach for plug ins to fill that role, Live itself is the sampler. I'm done. You're wrong from the beginning, Cubase is a a DAW with a few plug in samplers, Live is a loop oriented DAW that behaves like a sampler. That you're arguing against that is just...

SamplerTrack isn't a plugin. And you're talking about loops again.

btw, I would love to hear anything you've made that is half as good and well produced as 'Don't Start Now' or 'New Rules', regardless of whether you like it or not.

what a joke.

[sleepypoos]

8x8 clip grid... I can create 1000 Sampler Tracks and save it as a template, and have Groove Agent on my side monitor.

[machinesworking]

you're talking about loops again.

I get that he can’t reply now, but this is wrong. Ableton Live Clips can be loops, an entire tracks worth of unwarped audio, or a single quarter second one shot sample, this can be MIDI or audio. With the dozens of controllers that auto map to clips and Rack macros. Even without a Clip launcher like Push etc. the clips can be mapped to a note etc. to trigger any way you want them to. The whole point he continually ignored that makes Live a sampler workstation compared to other DAWs (Bitwig notwithstanding), is that between Clips and various super quick sample manipulation techniques, it’s just much more of an immediate experience than using plug ins in a traditional linear sequencer. Didn’t even get into using Push with the drum rack etc.

Anyway Cubase is cool, it’s just not the same, I’ve kept Live around 100% because it behaves and interacts like a modern sampler workstation with crazy deep other parts of that system.

[Dionysos]

Curious, we've come this far in the thread without FL Studio being mentioned.

I don't use it much anymore, but it's supremely suited for heavy sample usage and has been long before most other DAWs caught up to it (and partly surpassed it in aspects). It's got Edison (a brilliant sampling tool and editor), two different slicer plugins, Wave Traveller, Granuliser, Harmor for resynthesis, a bunch of realtime or precomputed timestretching options, a free-form playlist for in-place audio slicing for those who like that, and a simple step sequencer that's more integrated than any other DAW's. There's a lot to like in there for people working with samples, out of the box.

[arkmabat]

Renoise is the obvious answer here.

[apoclypse]

I don't know if Live is still the "best". I think a lot of DAWs have caught up in-terms of sampling. Logic in particular has a really nice workflow and has a few tricks Live doesn't. I personally don't like chopping samples in Live, I feel like that workflow is a little clunkier than I'd like. I'm sure if I still had a Push I would love it. Personally I like old school sample chopping so Maschine, MPC etc imo is where its at. Slicing in a DAW doesn't give me the same immediacy imo.

Have you tried Groove Agent, can buy it as a Logic plugin/Standalone. 30day demo if you've never tried it.

No I haven't played around with it. I already have Maschine, MPC, and Battery. So I'm pretty much covered. Thanks tho.

[LivingParadox]

you're talking about loops again.

I get that he can’t reply now, but this is wrong. Ableton Live Clips can be loops, an entire tracks worth of unwarped audio, or a single quarter second one shot sample, this can be MIDI or audio. With the dozens of controllers that auto map to clips and Rack macros. Even without a Clip launcher like Push etc. the clips can be mapped to a note etc. to trigger any way you want them to. The whole point he continually ignored that makes Live a sampler workstation compared to other DAWs (Bitwig notwithstanding), is that between Clips and various super quick sample manipulation techniques, it’s just much more of an immediate experience than using plug ins in a traditional linear sequencer. Didn’t even get into using Push with the drum rack etc.

Anyway Cubase is cool, it’s just not the same, I’ve kept Live around 100% because it behaves and interacts like a modern sampler workstation with crazy deep other parts of that system.

Hi, do you know of a good video that shows what you're exactly talking about? Thinking about checking out Live.

Thank you

[Ikaz7]

There is no doubt that you can do sample-based music in Cubase, but it's far from being a DAW that is streamlined towards sample based workflows.

I dislike Groove Agent for it's very inferior UX / UI. It has most of the functions, but not implemented in a concise manner, that would make it straightforward and efficient to use. Strangely designed button and tabbed menues for crucial funtions is not the way to go.

If you are mainly working with samples, I would suggest NI Maschine or MPC Beats (has a free edition).

Ableton Live is not too bad either, but not as streamlined towards the mainly sample based approach.

[Ikaz7]

OK you outed yourself. Like a lot of users of traditional DAWs you can’t wrap your head around Live, so you write it off as a toy. You’re not alone, but again, you’re dead wrong in every respect. I’ve used Live as a secondary DAW since version 4, my main DAW is Digital Performer, I’ve used and and done work in Logic, Cubase, Reason, Reaper, Pro Tools, Bitwig, etc. etc. There’s a direct unassailable reason I keep Live around, because It’s like a beefed up version of the MPC or EMU samplers I used to use.

My head is completely wrapped around and through Live and all aspects of it. I'm not in the habbit of half-learning things - I've used the program in more complicated ways than the majority of Ableton users. What is it I'm not wrapping my head around? It's not magic dude.

Well, Groove Agent is probably more akin to the MPC or EMU samplers you used to use.

Ableton is 'okay'. That's as much as I will give it, it's 'okay'.

The beginning of my recording passion started with looping. Boss DD-20 Giga Delay with 20sec of sound on sound loop time and one layer of undo. Ran into 1/8th soundblaster card, into Windows Recorder.

I'm well versed in all styles of production, including Ableton - because I have to be regardless of avoiding it like the plague. Any time I've ever worked with someone who has only ever used Ableton - they know NOTHING about professional workflow and ethic - Because Ableton just does not facilitate those things. It facilitates triggering stacked loops and mixing them together, sort of like a DJ, requiring little actual musical skill. I consider that nearly a toy, could you score the next batman movie in Ableton? Yes, but everything would take 100x as long.

Without any disrespect to Logic, Cubase and DP, they’re complex DAWs with slow methodical workflows, they aren’t and never were designed to act like a hardware sampler, MPC etc. they don’t have that kind of workflow. Groove agent isn’t comparable to the entire DAW being designed around the concept of sample manipulation like Live is.

Slow methodical workflows? You've lost your mind. Nothing beats my Cubase workflow, you need to go deeper into the program mate if you think that. If you have seriously used Cubase, you have misused it. Nothing has been able to beat my Cubase workflow - not even close. You don't even seem to be aware of what the PLE is or can do.

Cubase was designed to organize, sequence, and control Samplers. That's why it comes with one, with all sorts of integration features. The entire DAW is designed around that concept.

Tell me this, how do you select the lead vocal track in DP?

My point wasn’t directed at you, you’re the one who needs to “challenge” someone about how kewl Cubase is, you could have simply stated your case, but you looked to argue with other users about your DAW of choice, which is beyond dumb really. I’m sorry I got caught up with you in some idiotic pissing contest.

Bro, I'm not challenging you. I'm trying to help you. Should I go back and start quoting you.

Again, sorry, but stupidly wrong here,

Jesus.

Like the original poster stated, Live is considered by most rational people not getting emotional about their DAW of choice, to be the most sample oriented DAW out there. It’s again pretty much a Sampler workstation disguised as a DAW, and honestly people getting stuck looping in Live are simply in need of more theory. If you need DAW features to finish a song, you’re not actually writing the song in the first place.

So, are you telling me Dorico wouldn't be more efficient in teaching people music theory than Ableton? Ableton doesn't even have a score editor. Why are you even considering this - the entire ethos of Cubase is designed around linear composition and theory. Ableton literally became popular because of a beatboxer doing beatbox loops. And it was cool.

Cool 10 years ago. It is not a benchmark staple. It's a popular fun piece of looping software - until you actually try to do anything serious in it. That's what made it popular because that is what works best in the program - looping and clip launching. Companies released entire hardware lines based on that. They didn't wing it when it came to their market research.

If you need DAW features to finish a song, you’re not actually writing the song in the first place.

It's about finishing songs quicker = more songs.

It's about having your projects, life, career, and samples organized.

Deadmau5 on ditching Ableton for Cubase (because of PDC)



Any sample production in there? I'm not sure.

Interesting points. I ditched Cubase after 20 years of using it for the exact same reasons that "Maschinesworking" mentions: slow, methodical workflow (by "methodical" I guess he refers to an inflexible default workflow, that can feel a bit rigid at times).

But hey, if you are confident and content with the way Cubase does things, then stick with it. I'm not saying it's horrible, but Ableton allows me - a longterm Cubase user since way before Cubase SX was released - to be 200% faster and more creative, especially since it's much easier to go from the initial idea to a full arrangement in Ableton using a workflow that makes best use of both the loop based Session view and also the linerar Arrangement view.

Not to mention the much superior sound design capabilities when working with samples using the various built in and third party Max 4 Live modulators. The built in LFO alone outperforms anything the Cubase offers in that regard, since you can quickly link to multiple parameters simultaneously with one click.

I only tried the initial version of Cubase Sampler Track and was looking forward to it, but it left a lot to be desired even compared to Ableton's very basic Simpler device. That initial version of Sampler Track did not even allow slicing. And as said in my previous post: Groove Agent, while having most features I would expect, is really unpleasant to work with.

Did you ever try Ableton for a prolonged period or what is your assessment / comparision of Cubase and Ableton based on?

[LivingParadox]

I'm still primarily on FL, but have spent quite a bit of time in Cubase and when asking and learning from their forums is that, it's all about creating a template. There are lots of settings and little tab menus with presets that can be assigned to KCs. There's KC's for everything plus the macro system plus the PLE and the macro and PLE can be daisy chained in all sorts of ways. If you just use Cubase out of the box without tweaking the program to fit your needs and workflow, you won't realize the true power of Cubase.

[machinesworking]

Interesting points. I ditched Cubase after 20 years of using it for the exact same reasons that "Maschinesworking" mentions: slow, methodical workflow (by "methodical" I guess he refers to an inflexible default workflow, that can feel a bit rigid at times).

But hey, if you are confident and content with the way Cubase does things, then stick with it. I'm not saying it's horrible, but Ableton allows me - a longterm Cubase user since way before Cubase SX was released - to be 200% faster and more creative, especially since it's much easier to go from the initial idea to a full arrangement in Ableton using a workflow that makes best use of both the loop based Session view and also the linerar Arrangement view.

Not to mention the much superior sound design capabilities when working with samples using the various built in and third party Max 4 Live modulators. The built in LFO alone outperforms anything the Cubase offers in that regard, since you can quickly link to multiple parameters simultaneously with one click.

I only tried the initial version of Cubase Sampler Track and was looking forward to it, but it left a lot to be desired even compared to Ableton's very basic Simpler device. That initial version of Sampler Track did not even allow slicing. And as said in my previous post: Groove Agent, while having most features I would expect, is really unpleasant to work with.

Did you ever try Ableton for a prolonged period or what is your assessment / comparision of Cubase and Ableton based on?

Sleepypoop got banned, so he can't answer you, but yeah, your points are exactly what I've been talking about. Audio in Live is where Live shines, it's got a solid simple but flexible MIDI system, but audio as play dough is where Live rules the roost really. I think of the whole system as unto a sampler. People have mentioned and have a point that ReNoise and Fruity Loops are similar in a way, but I would say without a doubt that Live treats it like putty compared to other DAWs.

My complaints for years are staring to be answered, it's making it to where for most songs I'm looking to Live more than DP, Logic etc. We'll see? I'm invested in DP, but IMO DP is about templates and large projects, I wouldn't want to write orchestral music in Live, people do but IMO it's not what Live is made to do. Live is great with a blank canvas and few samples you recorded etc. I'm doing a project in DP specifically that asks you to use only a single bell WAV file to write the entire 20 second piece. It's of course possible in DP, DP has a new great simple sampler etc. but I have to admit Live is far more capable with this sort of thing.

[machinesworking]

I'm still primarily on FL, but have spent quite a bit of time in Cubase and when asking and learning from their forums is that, it's all about creating a template. There are lots of settings and little tab menus with presets that can be assigned to KCs. There's KC's for everything plus the macro system plus the PLE and the macro and PLE can be daisy chained in all sorts of ways. If you just use Cubase out of the box without tweaking the program to fit your needs and workflow, you won't realize the true power of Cubase.

So this is what I meant, Cubase, DP, Reaper, and Logic, (I'm not as familiar with, but I imagine this is true of Sonar, Samplitude, and Studio One) are all old school linear DAWs at heart, the workflow is VAST, you can and should spend some time learning the program to fit your needs, you might have to adjust multiple parts of the system to bend it to your will, and you will have to give up old ideas on how to work if you're coming from another DAW etc.

In comparison, Live, Bitwig etc. are geared towards immediate gratification, you can successfully mouse around any program, but there are few that are as easy to not know how to use fully and still get something done in, than Live.

Anyway there's a reason they all exist, I went on an MPE pilgrimage and bought up quite a few before Live and DP got MPE support and I guess unlike most people I found all of them to be pretty great. Every DAW has strong and weak points, but in general it made it almost impossible to just go back to Live and DP alone, because they're all amazing. I started off on a Mac plus with floppy disks and a Mirage sampler, so maybe that makes my appreciation higher I don't know? but they all have great features.

[pierb]

Not to mention the much superior sound design capabilities when working with samples using the various built in and third party Max 4 Live modulators. The built in LFO alone outperforms anything the Cubase offers in that regard, since you can quickly link to multiple parameters simultaneously with one click.

Bitwig is much superior regarding modulators but after having been using it for like 2 years I'm back at Cubase. Modulators seemed like a cool idea initially, and I'm sure some people can't live without those, but now I don't miss them at all and I think these are more of a gimmick (unless you're doing generative music).

In truth all synths and samplers have modulation. Many effects do too. DAW modulators are only really useful if you want to sync modulation between multiple devices which is kind of a very specific use case. You can still use automation for certain uses cases, or use VCV Rack or something like New Sonic Arts Freestyle to do generative stuff.

I only tried the initial version of Cubase Sampler Track and was looking forward to it, but it left a lot to be desired even compared to Ableton's very basic Simpler device. That initial version of Sampler Track did not even allow slicing. And as said in my previous post: Groove Agent, while having most features I would expect, is really unpleasant to work with.

Totally agree with you here. Both the Sampler Track and Groove agent are quite bad. Nothing like Live's or Bitwig's sampler.

To remedy the Groove Agent situation I ended up getting TAL DRUM which is really awesome. It's like a modern version of Battery with some cool stuff by TAL.