iZotope Neutron 4

[skonghi]

I avoid being an iZotope costumer at all costs. Luckily Neutron 4 din't catch my attention neither.

[Serhii Kot]

I avoid being an iZotope costumer at all costs.

Why it is so dramatic? "At all costs"

[lightsfadelow]

Switching gears a bit from upgrade pricing to using the product. I'm actually pretty excited about Neutron 4. I like izotope products, but this is my first time owning Neutron so I have some basic questions.

Let's say I'm all in on (at least trying) Neutron's model, where you use Neutron's visual mixing system, etc.

Neutron is izotope's "channel strip" ... so should it be in the last pre-fader effects spot for every track? Or a post-fader spot?
I assume I should leave all Logic's faders at 0db - untouched and do all my level, pan, etc. changes either in Neutron or the visual mixer?

This is the one I can't wrap my head around: What about when I buss channels together like a drum group or several tracks of backing vocals? How do I handle that situation? Does Neutron understand when it's on a channel routed to a buss and is that properly reflected in the visual mixer? If not, what's the strategy if I need to use Neutron on each channel but I want to be thinking of them as a group when working in the visual mixer?

These are my top Neutron questions... I'm sure I'll have more as I continue to work with it.

[dayjob]

Neutron is izotope's "channel strip" ... so should it be in the last pre-fader effects spot for every track? Or a post-fader spot?
I assume I should leave all Logic's faders at 0db - untouched and do all my level, pan, etc. changes either in Neutron or the visual mixer?

i've never used the visual mixer. it seems like a gimmick. to me neutron is a group of plug ins i can put in a chain. extra routing and side chain options as well as visual feedback via the ability to overlap frequency spectrums of different tracks.

when i use it i tend to leave it open as in nothing instantiated in it.. then i set levels on faders for tracks in my DAW not in neutron.. once i have some levels set and aa very rough mix then i start eqing and compressing etc.. often with other eqs or limiters or clippers etc on tracks (as needed) + neutron. i've never found neutron to solve all my problems when mixing.

and again.. i've never used the visual mixer. i'd rather automate everything i need to automate.

[DJ Warmonger]

I already have all I need, and iZotope must try harder to convince me otherwise.

[ghettosynth]

As a proponent of all things GAS I have to admit that the way things are heading right now - ridiculous upgrade prices for the smallest improvements - yes that’s also you McDSP - and the whole subscription nonsense - I’m about to un - GAS myself really fast. The way companies are heading right now is creating the exact opposite effect, instead of inspiring me with new innovative product they are making me think twice with regards to their motives. I’m backtracking and beginning to think it’s time to reduce to the Max.

Yep. I'm there with you.

[skonghi]

I avoid being an iZotope costumer at all costs.

Why it is so dramatic? "At all costs"

I dislike their business model. They release expensive upgrades just after a big sale and they sell plugins in bundles, not individually. They have quality stuff, not arguing with that, but if I want a multi-band stereo imager for example, I have to get the whole Ozone 9 package.

[ghettosynth]

I avoid being an iZotope costumer at all costs.

Why it is so dramatic? "At all costs"

I dislike their business model. They release expensive upgrades just after a big sale and they sell plugins in bundles, not individually. They have quality stuff, not arguing with that, but if I want a multi-band stereo imager for example, I have to get the whole Ozone 9 package.

They also do these kinds of upgrades and petty bundle shenanigans where there is very little new and then don't maintain old plugins. The original Neutron is my favorite, but it has weird install bugs and isn't really supported anymore.

[lightsfadelow]

I avoid being an iZotope costumer at all costs.

Why it is so dramatic? "At all costs"

I dislike their business model. They release expensive upgrades just after a big sale and they sell plugins in bundles, not individually. They have quality stuff, not arguing with that, but if I want a multi-band stereo imager for example, I have to get the whole Ozone 9 package.

My experience is the polar opposite. Here's my most recent - I owned older versions of Ozone and Nectar. I happened to receive a 30% off coupon from iZotope about 10 days ago, so I hopped on to see what was offered, and I found that with the coupon I could get the Mix and Master Bundle Advanced which included the latest Ozone Advanced and Nectar Advanced (which were upgrades for me), plus Neutron 3 Advanced, Neoverb, and Melodyne Essentials for $100 after the discount. I thought of this as an inexpensive way to get Neutron 3 Advanced.

That seemed like a pretty screaming deal for the latest version of everything plus a new product that I was interested in trying that included so much.

But the next week I saw that Neutron 4 was announced.

"Oh well, it's still a good deal," I thought.

But I went to my account page and found that I was granted a Neutron 4 license automatically as well even though it hadn't been released when I bought the bundle.

That's kind of the opposite of "They release expensive upgrades just after a big sale."

Additionally, think about how others sell plugins.

Fabfilter, which is a great company everyone agrees. I have NOTHING bad to say about them. They make great plugins. But everything is separate. $179 for the gate, $179 for the single band compressor, $199 for the multi band compressor, $199 for the reverb, $179 for the EQ, etc. etc.

Am I saying that any of these aren't worth $179 or $199? No, not at all. Think about how much effort goes into building each of these and making them great. Tons. And think about how small the audience is for plugins. Tiny. The ROI for building plugins is pretty low. Thank god for Fabfilter! Thankfully they are using their highly marketable software development skills to do something that we love instead of something much more lucrative like working for Facebook!

It's the same with iZotope. Everyone working there could make more money working for Google or Facebook, or some SaaS software company you've never heard of and they follow their passion and make software for you to be creative with instead. And comparing the two companies, think about what you get with Neutron, Nectar, Ozone - buy only of these and you get a compressor, gate/expander, limiter, EQ, saturator, reverb, de-esser, and a bunch of AI-driven assistive capabilities, etc. The mothership model includes it all. And they're often quite reasonable, and my experience is that if you buy during the big sale and they upgrade a product after you buy, they may just auto-grant you the license for the new product.

Also, you could pay $200 a year and get the latest version of everything they make as soon as it ships, which even if you only make a trickle off of Spotify and Apple Music streams, is still a pretty good deal. At that price, it would take you 12 YEARS buying roughly one plugin a year from Fabfilter to get their entire suite of products. 12 years.

Again, we all love Fabfilter. This is not about whether Fabfilter's business practices are good or bad. They make great plugins. I'm just trying to put all the negative "business practice" talk into perspective.

[skonghi]

I avoid being an iZotope costumer at all costs.

Why it is so dramatic? "At all costs"

I dislike their business model. They release expensive upgrades just after a big sale and they sell plugins in bundles, not individually. They have quality stuff, not arguing with that, but if I want a multi-band stereo imager for example, I have to get the whole Ozone 9 package.

My experience is the polar opposite. Here's my most recent - I owned older versions of Ozone and Nectar. I happened to receive a 30% off coupon from iZotope about 10 days ago, so I hopped on to see what was offered, and I found that with the coupon I could get the Mix and Master Bundle Advanced which included the latest Ozone Advanced and Nectar Advanced (which were upgrades for me), plus Neutron 3 Advanced, Neoverb, and Melodyne Essentials for $100 after the discount. I thought of this as an inexpensive way to get Neutron 3 Advanced.

That seemed like a pretty screaming deal for the latest version of everything plus a new product that I was interested in trying that included so much.

But the next week I saw that Neutron 4 was announced.

"Oh well, it's still a good deal," I thought.

But I went to my account page and found that I was granted a Neutron 4 license automatically as well even though it hadn't been released when I bought the bundle.

That's kind of the opposite of "They release expensive upgrades just after a big sale."

Additionally, think about how others sell plugins.

Fabfilter, which is a great company everyone agrees. I have NOTHING bad to say about them. They make great plugins. But everything is separate. $179 for the gate, $179 for the single band compressor, $199 for the multi band compressor, $199 for the reverb, $179 for the EQ, etc. etc.

Am I saying that any of these aren't worth $179 or $199? No, not at all. Think about how much effort goes into building each of these and making them great. Tons. And think about how small the audience is for plugins. Tiny. The ROI for building plugins is pretty low. Thank god for Fabfilter! Thankfully they are using their highly marketable software development skills to do something that we love instead of something much more lucrative like working for Facebook!

It's the same with iZotope. Everyone working there could make more money working for Google or Facebook, or some SaaS software company you've never heard of and they follow their passion and make software for you to be creative with instead. And comparing the two companies, think about what you get with Neutron, Nectar, Ozone - buy only of these and you get a compressor, gate/expander, limiter, EQ, saturator, reverb, de-esser, and a bunch of AI-driven assistive capabilities, etc. The mothership model includes it all. And they're often quite reasonable, and my experience is that if you buy during the big sale and they upgrade a product after you buy, they may just auto-grant you the license for the new product.

Also, you could pay $200 a year and get the latest version of everything they make as soon as it ships, which even if you only make a trickle off of Spotify and Apple Music streams, is still a pretty good deal. At that price, it would take you 12 YEARS buying roughly one plugin a year from Fabfilter to get their entire suite of products. 12 years.

Again, we all love Fabfilter. This is not about whether Fabfilter's business practices are good or bad. They make great plugins. I'm just trying to put all the negative "business practice" talk into perspective.

Maybe Soundwide was good for iZotope's clients after all, as I don't recall them giving away their newest softwares after sales. And yes, $100 for all that software is a good deal if you're going to use at least 80% of them, which is not my case.

I have friends who own Ozone 8 complaining about the upgrade prices. They don't feel the software changed that much but the installers are not working well on the newer macOS so they're being forced to upgrade for the sake of keeping the softwares running, not actual enhancements.

In comparison, Fabfilter is expensive indeed. The Total Bundle was $750 on Black Friday! I own it because I was very lucky to find it cheap second hand in a FB group. IMO Fabfilter is better than Ozone in terms of UI, features, workflow and sound. But if it's worth 7 times more, that's another story...

I'm sure iZotope's team could be making much more money working for big tech or finance, but there's happiness involved in this kind of decisions so I can tell from my own experience that it's better to work on what you love and do OK than loving cash instead. But my criticism is genuine from my past experiences with iZotope and again I think it sucks that I must buy every Ozone plugin when I'm only interested in the multi-band imager. In that scenario I rather buy Space Control from Acustica Audio for 85 Euro (it expensive but it has more features than Ozone's stereo imager) or keep using 3 plugins for multi-band stereo expansion and metering. If Ozone's multi-band imager was sold standalone for about $20 I'd grab it and be happy with it.

[zrslv]

My experience is the polar opposite. Here's my most recent - I owned older versions of Ozone and Nectar. I happened to receive a 30% off coupon from iZotope about 10 days ago, so I hopped on to see what was offered, and I found that with the coupon I could get the Mix and Master Bundle Advanced which included the latest Ozone Advanced and Nectar Advanced (which were upgrades for me), plus Neutron 3 Advanced, Neoverb, and Melodyne Essentials for $100 after the discount. I thought of this as an inexpensive way to get Neutron 3 Advanced.

That seemed like a pretty screaming deal for the latest version of everything plus a new product that I was interested in trying that included so much.

But the next week I saw that Neutron 4 was announced.

Similar experience here, paid for mix & master with Neutron 3 Advanced, got Neutron 4, surprisingly.

[LFO8]

Switching gears a bit from upgrade pricing to using the product. I'm actually pretty excited about Neutron 4. I like izotope products, but this is my first time owning Neutron so I have some basic questions.

Let's say I'm all in on (at least trying) Neutron's model, where you use Neutron's visual mixing system, etc.

Neutron is izotope's "channel strip" ... so should it be in the last pre-fader effects spot for every track? Or a post-fader spot?
I assume I should leave all Logic's faders at 0db - untouched and do all my level, pan, etc. changes either in Neutron or the visual mixer?

This is the one I can't wrap my head around: What about when I buss channels together like a drum group or several tracks of backing vocals? How do I handle that situation? Does Neutron understand when it's on a channel routed to a buss and is that properly reflected in the visual mixer? If not, what's the strategy if I need to use Neutron on each channel but I want to be thinking of them as a group when working in the visual mixer?

These are my top Neutron questions... I'm sure I'll have more as I continue to work with it.

The visual mixer is definitely a gimmick. Much easier (for me) to use Logic's faders and pan knobs (that's all the visual mixer does anyways).

I just treat Neutron for what it is down to the basic level: EQ, Saturation and Compression. You can have that in one module all together or as separate plugins.

[SLiC]

Far to expensive to upgrade, it’s a small bump, nothing I need…to be honest I’m not sure what they could add or change to make me want to update, it’s pretty complete as it is.

[nirm123]

Switching gears a bit from upgrade pricing to using the product. I'm actually pretty excited about Neutron 4. I like izotope products, but this is my first time owning Neutron so I have some basic questions.

Let's say I'm all in on (at least trying) Neutron's model, where you use Neutron's visual mixing system, etc.

Neutron is izotope's "channel strip" ... so should it be in the last pre-fader effects spot for every track? Or a post-fader spot?
I assume I should leave all Logic's faders at 0db - untouched and do all my level, pan, etc. changes either in Neutron or the visual mixer?

This is the one I can't wrap my head around: What about when I buss channels together like a drum group or several tracks of backing vocals? How do I handle that situation? Does Neutron understand when it's on a channel routed to a buss and is that properly reflected in the visual mixer? If not, what's the strategy if I need to use Neutron on each channel but I want to be thinking of them as a group when working in the visual mixer?

These are my top Neutron questions... I'm sure I'll have more as I continue to work with it.

The visual mixer is definitely a gimmick. Much easier (for me) to use Logic's faders and pan knobs (that's all the visual mixer does anyways).

I just treat Neutron for what it is down to the basic level: EQ, Saturation and Compression. You can have that in one module all together or as separate plugins.

I think that most of the new "AI" algorithms are not really AI which is a term being tossed of too easily these days, they follow very simplistic patterns (if it's a piano do this, if it's a vocal do that) and it usually can cause more damage than benefit.

I also was going with the EQ, compression and so on, but from what I'm seeing, all of these haven't been upgraded for years and years, probably since the Alloy 2 days.

So if we should treat Neutron without all the fancy gimmicks, nobody would have paid for any upgrade as the basic components are now quite old and although they're all solid, there are much better choices now, so iZotope knows that those gimmicks are the only selling point urging people to upgrade.

What's sadder than that is that we're being forced to upgrade, as usually (happened to me as well) iZotope will only support 1 previous version, and sometimes not even that as someone else wrote here that Ozone 8 stopped working on new OS, that means that the software will only work for you for 2, 3 years max and then you're forced to paid for an upgrade even if what you wanted from the software is the EQ, Compression and Saturation.

When I contacted iZotope support a few years ago, saying that I couldn't use Neutron 1 anymore, they said that I must upgrade (Neutron 1 was only 2.5 - 3 years old at that time).

While other companies are using these strategies as well, iZotope are taking it to the extreme and the lesson I learned myself after being forced to upgrade just to keep project working, is to go with companies which don't play these games, and reward their customers, for example u-he, you buy once and you more or less have free updates (or close to it, hive2 was 20€ although being almost a complete new synth, Zebra got free updates got almost 20 years and even Zebra3 upgrade price will only be 30 €). Even with Fabfilter who doesn't provide free upgrade, usually they release a new version only after 6,7 years (for example, FabFilter Pro-C2 was released 7 years ago, so during this time you're fully covered, and then provide a much better upgrade price). Toontrack also usually have a version out for 8 years before releasing a new one, and also then the upgrade price makes better sense, EZdrummer 3 early price was 79$ for EZdrummer 2 owners, just a month ago, 8 years after EZdrummer 2 was released).

I have Neutron 3 advanced, and the upgrade price for me is 149$ for Neutron 4, that's a joke, you can easily spend around 1000$ in 4 years (buying Neutron 1 advanced like I did and upgrading every few years) just to have a nice channel strip, that's ridiculous, and I've started moving all of my project to use Fabfilter Pro-Q3, Saturn 2, and U-he Presswerk instead.

[noiseboyuk]

The main argument I have some sympathy with is being forced to upgrade when changing OS. This affects Mac users far more than Windows, where every year they seem to fundamentally rewrite the OS. More or less everything seems to work on W11 that worked on W10, so you could go 10-15 years to have 2 OS updates, whereas it's 2 years on a mac.

AI - machine learning is a better description for what iZotope do, and it can be very clever (though more recently nothing to rival some of the RX features they ushered in a few years ago).

The visual mixer - unquestionably a pointless gimmick. But the communication between plugins is important, so it's not as simple as saying just look at the individual modules.

Pricing I have little-to-no-sympathy with the money argument though. iZotope's MO is clear - great bargains for those who wait. You don't have to upgrade the moment it comes out, so don't.