Gaming Computer vs Mac

[PAK]

Anyway, as long as they have the only serious "RISC" architecture offer in the market, I don't have choice...

Yes, you're right. The whole power situation (whether laptops or running costs) is going to force change, and a lot of PC users seem unaware of this presently.

That transition, which Mac has largely went through, is going to cause difficulties on the PC side, and if you doubt this it's already happening even before we see stuff like RISC cores. EG Cubase struggling to run well on newer Intel processors, and Korg's OpSix and Wavestate just plain don't work properly on some processors (including my old i7) and there's no sign of a fix in sight.. So the Apple path is looking like the one which will cause me less annoyances..

But ultimately, for those of us who don't care about Mac Vs PC, it comes down to costs. Even though PC's offer FAR better performance value, thanks to electricity costs it's now easy for them to end up costing more. I don't think some people know just how much more either.. A few hours per day can easily add up to hundreds of £/$/€ more in electricity per year.

[Jac459]

Yes, you're right. The whole power situation (whether laptops or running costs) is going to force change, and a lot of PC users seem unaware of this presently.

That transition, which Mac has largely went through, is going to cause difficulties on the PC side, and if you doubt this it's already happening even before we see stuff like RISC cores. EG Cubase struggling to run well on newer Intel processors, and Korg's OpSix and Wavestate just plain don't work properly on some processors (including my old i7) and there's no sign of a fix in sight.. So the Apple path is looking like the one which will cause me less annoyances..

But ultimately, for those of us who don't care about Mac Vs PC, it comes down to costs. Even though PC's offer FAR better performance value, thanks to electricity costs it's now easy for them to end up costing more. I don't think some people know just how much more either.. A few hours per day can easily add up to hundreds of £/$/€ more in electricity per year.

Can't agree more...

Funny enough Microsoft tried the move 10 years ago or more with Windows RT...

[uOpt]

Keep in mind that Windows 11 is harder to tame than Windows 10. The audio community understands Win10 pretty well and can make it "focus" on the audio tasks alone. In Windows 11 you may have unwanted activity show up that people are still working on.

In the Mac world the newest OS doesn't have that problem. (it might cause compatibility issues of course, but no stuttering from random activity that nobody understands)

[jocknaethick]

I have spent the past year backwards and forwards on this issue. I have been on Mac since 2006 and my current iMac is an 8 year old i5. I look at the specs of machines and I think, "wow, a Windows machine is so much better value", I get outraged at the insane cost of upping the specs on Apple and I all but convince myself it is time to swap platforms. Then I think how utterly trouble free the past 17 years have been and I know that any machine I buy today is going to absolutely smash the performance of my current machine...so, as it stands today, I am waiting for the next round of iMacs, but we will see what tomorrow brings...

[HOTF]

Why a gaming PC? I bought a music laptop from SCAN a few years back. No regrets.

this might be a stupid question but how to Desktop or laptops ''made for audio'' differ from a regular PC with equivalent specs. They seem a bit more expensive than non audio PC with same specs. I imagine there is some kind of optimization for digital audio production... how does that work ?

[Pictus]

I imagine there is some kind of optimization for digital audio production... how does that work ?

This is the quick guide and should be enough
(Use https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon to check the DPC latency.)

- Install the latest Visual C++ 2022 Redistributable
https://github.com/abbodi1406/vcredist/releases

- Disable Widgets
https://www.elevenforum.com/t/enable-or ... s-11.1196/
or uninstall
https://www.thewindowsclub.com/how-to-u ... windows-11

- Disable Windows Hibernate/Fast Startup
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/285 ... -10-a.html

- Disable Core Isolation and Memory Integrity
https://www.thewindowsclub.com/core-iso ... windows-10

- Go to Settings>Personalization>Colors = Disable Transparency Effects


- Go to Settings>System>Multitasking = Disable Snap Windows


- Do the "Processor idle demote/promote threshold" tweak
use the Windows power plan settings explorer utility
and unselect "Processor idle demote/promote threshold"

New options will appear and set the Threshold to 100%.


- Processor performance time check interval = 5000

https://youtu.be/n9xAG3nb9XQ

- Disable Threaded DPCs(Windows XP behavior).
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windo ... eaded-dpcs
Open Powershell as Admin. Copy/Paste/Enter the following:
reg add "HKLM\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\kernel" /v ThreadDpcEnable /t REG_DWORD /f /d 0
https://youtu.be/_WDSks7c8II

- Disable Energy/GREEN/Power stuff for both Realtek and Intel LAN
Always get the LAN driver from Intel and Realtek site.


- Set the GPU/LAN/USB(mouse/audio) DRIVER to use a different CPU CORE/E-CORE.
Microsoft Interrupt Affinity Tool how to use here.
I set the GPU to use the last 2 cores.
Because of hyperthreading/SMT each 2 cores = 1 real core.
Intel E-core does not have hyperthreading.
GPU driver = 11 and 10
USB xHCI Host = 9 and 8
LAN driver = 7 and 6

Details in the video
https://youtu.be/WGDRL87tg5s

- Change the Windows Priority Separation from 2 to 16(hexadecimal)
Open Regedit and set
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\PriorityControl]
"Win32PrioritySeparation"=dword:00000016

From 2 to 16 will lower the DPC latency, but if you're playing with a USB MIDI
keyboard, make sure to test that the USB MIDI keyboard response is still good!
YMWV
More details about this tweak at
https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.ph ... tcount=364

Some good stuff:

https://coderbag.com/product/quickcpu
https://bitsum.com/

https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-upd ... cker-v1-7/
https://www.sordum.org/9480/defender-control-v2-1/

https://github.com/hellzerg/optimizer
https://www.w10privacy.de/english-home/
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
https://www.oo-software.com/en/ooappbuster

If you use AMD GPU, how to install the AMD driver with ZERO bloatware.

- Make sure the motherboard BIOS is updated.

- If it is AMD motherboard, make sure to install the latest chipset driver.
https://www.techpowerup.com/download/am ... t-drivers/

- Download the latest GPU driver
https://www.techpowerup.com/download/am ... s-drivers/

- Uninstall the current driver with DDU, Windows in SAFE Mode.
https://www.wagnardsoft.com/blog
How to use
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xRR ... LcYQ0/edit

- Install AMD GPU Driver only


- Reboot

- Go to Device manager and uninstall AMD Crash Defender

Select the Attempt to remove the driver for this device


- Download Autoruns
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysin ... s/autoruns
Run it as an administrator
Go to the TAB Options and make sure only Hide Empty Locations is enabled


- Go to TAB Scheduled Tasks and delete AMDInstallUEP


- Go to TAB Services and delete AMD Crash Defender Service


- Go to TAB Drivers and delete amdfendr and amdfendrmgr

[HOTF]

I imagine there is some kind of optimization for digital audio production... how does that work ?

This is the quick guide and should be enough

- Disable Widgets
https://www.elevenforum.com/t/enable-or ... s-11.1196/
or uninstall
https://www.thewindowsclub.com/how-to-u ... windows-11

- Disable Windows Hibernate
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/285 ... -10-a.html

- Disable Core Isolation and Memory Integrity
https://www.thewindowsclub.com/core-iso ... windows-10

- Do the "Processor idle demote/promote threshold" tweak
use the Windows power plan settings explorer utility
and unselect "Processor idle demote/promote threshold"

New options will appear and set the Threshold to 100%.



- Disable Energy/GREEN/Power stuff for both Realtek and Intel LAN
Always get the LAN driver from Intel and Realtek site.



Some good stuff:

https://bitsum.com/

https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-upd ... cker-v1-7/
https://www.sordum.org/9480/defender-control-v2-1/

https://www.w10privacy.de/english-home/
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
https://www.oo-software.com/en/ooappbuster

If you use AMD GPU, just install the driver

If you use Nvidia, get a debloated driver from
https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/531-7 ... on.433367/
And if NVIDIA is giving latency spikes, look at
https://www.bluecataudio.com/Blog/tip-o ... n-windows/


This is guide extended version.
viewtopic.php?p=7624448#p7624448

thanks for the information. Is that all Audio PC companies do before shipping the computer ?

[Pictus]

thanks for the information. Is that all Audio PC companies do before shipping the computer ?

You are welcome, but I do not know as I always build my own PC...
They probably do a careful custom Windows installation with the best drivers/config and maybe also tweak the BIOS, build a machine with proven compatible/reliable hardware and make sure that all works perfectly.
When you buy from then it is a guarantee that all works and you have specialized support. Good for musicians that do not need to lost time with this type of stuff and can concentrate into the music...

BTW, as it is a machine for music they probably also take care to make it more silent as possible.

[BONES]

Yes, you're right. The whole power situation (whether laptops or running costs) is going to force change, and a lot of PC users seem unaware of this presently.

What a load of absolute f**king bollocks. Read the whole f**king thread, I really can't be arsed explaining to you again how RISC has been around for 40+ years and it's never been any kind of threat to Intel before, nor is it now. Just this week, for example, AMD have released a new range of CPUs for ultraportables that are up to 75% better in benchmarks than an M2 powered MB Pro. You can read about it here. And, so far, there is no indication that Mac laptops run longer than Windows laptops, so any bullshit argument about "the whole power situation" is exactly that - bullshit.

That transition, which Mac has largely went through, is going to cause difficulties on the PC side, and if you doubt this it's already happening even before we see stuff like RISC cores.

More know-nothing bullshit. Windows has been running on ARM since the 1990s, way longer than macOS. Several vendors have even tried to sell Windows laptops with ARM processors but nobody wants to buy them.

EG Cubase struggling to run well on newer Intel processors, and Korg's OpSix and Wavestate just plain don't work properly on some processors (including my old i7) and there's no sign of a fix in sight..

You can't just make shit up to justify your ridiculous opinions. The issue with Wavestate/Opsix is to do with changes made in Windows 10 that Korg haven't issued a fix for. It has f**k-all to do with the hardware. Ditto for Cubase with hybrid CPUs - it's all software-related. Compared to the shit-storm of hassle Apple Silicon caused vendors, it serves only to bolster the case in favour of Intel.

So the Apple path is looking like the one which will cause me less annoyances.

If that's true, what are all these thread here on KVR about Apple Silicon support? It's completely clear that it caused problems orders of magnitude greater than anything you can dig up on Wintel.

thanks to electricity costs it's now easy for them to end up costing more.

You cannot be f**king serious? Are you really that desperate? Do you even know how much electricity costs? My monthly bill is around $20 and I doubt my laptop makes up more than 2-3% of that, despite being run 6-8 hours a day. The amps in my speakers likely consume 10 times more electricity.

I don't think some people know just how much more either.. A few hours per day can easily add up to hundreds of £/$/€ more in electricity per year.

If anyone doesn't know, pal, it's very clearly you because you have written the greatest load of bullshit I've read in a long time and you can't prove any of it.

Funny enough Microsoft tried the move 10 years ago or more with Windows RT...

Microsoft was running Windows Server on RISC in the 1990s, undoubtedly on many millions of servers around the world. But DEC's RISC architecture didn't make it then and there is nothing at all to indicate that RISC has improved enough to change the status quo now. And whilst Mac users have always been happy to drop their trousers and bend over the kitchen table for Apple, PC users expect to be able to run all their old applications and continue to use all their old peripherals on any and every new computer they buy. They will never accept a switch that involves even one-tenth of the upheaval that Mac users welcomed with open arms (pun intended). More to the point, there is no reason they should, as they are already on the superior platform in every way that actually matters.

Keep in mind that Windows 11 is harder to tame than Windows 10. The audio community understands Win10 pretty well and can make it "focus" on the audio tasks alone. In Windows 11 you may have unwanted activity show up that people are still working on.

Firstly, that has not been my experience at all. On three different laptops I've seen improved performance and stability under Win11. There were a few teething problems early on but they were fixed a couple of years ago. Secondly, it's not 1997, I can run lots of things at once on my laptop and not have to worry about how it affects any one application that might be trying to monopolise the processing power. e.g. I can have Studio One playing a project while I edit the artwork for it in Xara Designer Pro and neither application affects the operation of the other, even though I'm only using a Core i5 CPU.

[Jac459]

......bla...bla....bla.....

Bones yelling at clouds as usual....

You are comparing windows server and windows.... Do you understand how different it is? Do you think that the windows server applications risc were compatible with the windows server x86 ones (i help you, they weren't....f**king obviously) What is your point then?
As usual, you are googling facts that you don't even understand....
While you are at I let you comment that :
https://www.windowslatest.com/2023/04/3 ... indows-12/

On the AMD news, I am glad that they are finally catching up and I'll go back to them when I am convinced... but do you realise that you are talking about a cpu that is not even out yet against one that is already in ipads !?
Not even the top of the line anymore, m2 pro and max are significantly more powerful. So they are comparing themselves to the entry level Apple Silicon on a cpu that is not even out.... doesn't it prove the point that they are far behind (I help you, yes it does !).

[T-CM11]

The OP has been banned. I don't know why, but most of his posts seem very bot-like.

[PAK]

What a load of absolute...

You're confusing raw performance with performance per watt. The energy advantage of RISC has held for those 40+ years. You're right that traditionally it hasn't mattered as much for desktop performance computing. But times they are a changing..

You see there are things called atoms. Manufacturing is approaching that size limit. It means they won't be able to double the amount of transistors (aka Moores law) without literally doubling the chips size. Meanwhile they can't increase the gigahurtz harder as it uses a thing called electricity which causes heat. This electricity has become very expensive in some countries. So how to improve performance? Well, amongst other things, you might reduce the number of instructions and make a chip do more with each cycle..

You can read about it here. And, so far, there is no indication that Mac laptops run longer than Windows laptops, so any bullshit argument about "the whole power situation" is exactly that - bullshit.

You linked to an article where AMD proclaims its new processor is "just as good as hoity toity Apple, innit". In other news you may have missed that NVidia's graphical performance also kicks Apple's ass. The problem Bones, is that it uses the power equivalent of a small Australian city to do so. If you look for anything power related in that article you linked here's what you find: "AMD also boasts of improved efficiency to provide the longest possible time on battery power, although it doesn't provide estimates". Ahhh..

Windows has been running on ARM since the 1990s, way longer than macOS. Several vendors have even tried to sell Windows laptops with ARM processors but nobody wants to buy them.

Run? I thought it was more of a crawl. Btw.. MacOS is based on FreeBSD, which is based on Bell Labs Research Unix. MacOS has biggest peepee.

You can't just make shit up to justify your ridiculous opinions. The issue with Wavestate/Opsix is to do with changes made in Windows 10 that Korg haven't issued a fix for. It has f**k-all to do with the hardware.

You seem to know a lot about the thread management issues involved here Bones. Maybe you should contact Korg and tell them how to fix things since they've had the same problems since launch?

Ditto for Cubase with hybrid CPUs - it's all software-related.

And what's causing those software issues Bones? Intel make a different core type (in an attempt to reduce huge power usage) and it's the software devs fault that these new cores are different with different handling by the OS? Thanks for letting us know

If that's true, what are all these thread here on KVR about Apple Silicon support? It's completely clear that it caused problems orders of magnitude greater than anything you can dig up on Wintel.

Your parsing is not the best. The whole point was that, though it's still ongoing, Apple has (largely) went through that process. It controls both the hardware AND software, which also gives it major advantages here. We'll see how things go on the Windows side come time for Windows 12..

thanks to electricity costs it's now easy for them to end up costing more.

You cannot be f**king serious? Are you really that desperate? Do you even know how much electricity costs? My monthly bill is around $20

Unfortunately, I do know how much its costs Bones. Do you? A UK household pays approx Aus $30 per month just to be connected. That's before you use any electricity. Prices, in places like Germany and the UK, have approx doubled in 2 years. An "average" household can easily have bills 10-20x what your bill is.

If anyone doesn't know, pal, it's very clearly you because you have written the greatest load of bullshit I've read in a long time and you can't prove any of it.

I'm not your pal, buddy. Search "British Gas average bill", it will show you "typical" household costs, and you'll find electricity kWh rates there too. Once you've managed that feel free to search "total system power usage" benchmark measurements for PC's and Apple M1 etc. Then do the calculations. You won't, of course.

[2DaT]

An "average" household can easily have bills 10-20x what your bill is.

Most of the consumption is dominated by heaters, AC, refrigerators, cooking/washing appliances, lighting. PCs aren't going to be significant, unless you game on them with power hungry GPU.

A statement that a MAC is going to save you a hundreds of $$$ per year doesn't make much sense if you calculate the power usage under normal conditions. You won't be running power hungry stuff on your PC/MAC 24/7 and it doesn't matter if it consumes 30 watts or 80 in a grand scheme of things. A second monitor is going to consume 100 watts easily, yet nobody takes the power efficiency of monitors seriously.

Even if you do manage to use your PC/MAC a lot, let's say 150W/h on MAC and 400W/h on PC per day, given the current price of 0.33$/Kwh the difference will amount to 30$ per year. Not exactly a hundreds of $$$.

[PAK]

PCs aren't going to be significant, unless you game on them with power hungry GPU.

There are far too many variables for such blanket statements to be made. Even at idle PC systems can vary -hugely-.. (And tend to be higher on audio PC's because of how frequently power management features cause issues for realtime audio.. )

A statement that a MAC is going to

My phrase was "can easily". That's a conditional statement, otherwise I'd have used "will". Common sense dictates energy usage varies based on the individual. If you're gaming on a 4080 it's rated at 320w alone. But you might just leave a system idle 24/7, and that can be expensive too. The cost of electricity is now sufficiently high enough, in some regions, that it should be a variable in peoples considerations when buying a computer. People impacted should definitely use a wall monitor to see how much energy their computer usage costs. If you're doing intensive computing, or using a system for long periods, these costs CAN be (and probably are, in impacted regions) significant.

A second monitor is going to consume 100 watts easily, yet nobody takes the power efficiency of monitors seriously.

100 watts is actually high. Size, back lighting method, and brightness all mean these amounts can vary too. And I take them into account. It's certainly possible switching to a more energy efficient monitor could pay for itself depending on usage, and particularly if the older monitor uses a fluorescent back light at high brightness settings.

Even if you do manage to use your PC/MAC a lot, let's say 150W/h on MAC and 400W/h on PC per day, given the current price of 0.33$/Kwh the difference will amount to 30$ per year. Not exactly a hundreds of $$$.

The current price where? The UK is closer to US $0.43 per kWh presently. Also you fail to mention the hours used. So lets correct that and do a 24/7 usage scenario.

150W per hour x 24 hrs = 3.6kWh per day x 365 is 1314kWh per year. Now times that by the true cost (0.43 US dollars) and we get? $565.02 total cost. The PC, at 400W is 0.4kWh x 24 = 9.6kWH per day. Times 365 = 3,504kWH/yr x 0.43c = $1506.72. That's an operating cost difference of $941.70 in just a single year using your numbers. Even with one tenth of the usage the difference would still be $94.17 per year. For your $30 amount to be true you'd have to use the computer for barely half an hour per day!

[jocknaethick]

You cannot be f**king serious? Are you really that desperate? Do you even know how much electricity costs? My monthly bill is around $20 and I doubt my laptop makes up more than 2-3% of that, despite being run 6-8 hours a day. The amps in my speakers likely consume 10 times more electricity.

Give f#cking over!!! Are you living in a f#cking cave? The supply charge from Energy Australia in the last quarter was $95.40. Now admittedly, I am in a pretty energy intensive home but there is no way on Earth I could reduce my last bill of $2033 down to the same ball park you are talking about. In fact my old man who lives by himself in a small house and barely uses any power typically averages out around $450 a quarter and that is with the pensioner discount...unless you are running extension leads to your neighbours power I'm calling absolute bullshit on your claim here.