Groove Synthesis 3rd Wave Desktop verison announced ($3500)

[CoolColJ]

A nice touch with the envelopes is you can choose between 3rd wave or the original PPG envelopes.

Can the mod matrix self modulate the envelope stage shapes to change the slopes?
I like doing that on my synths that have such a feature to create DX7 style multistage envelope bonky percussive tones

Not sure what you mean.
If you mean can you use an envelope to module the ADSR then yes

I meant, to use another envelope to modulate the filter envelope decay stage, so the slope changes from stock to a steeper initial slope moving into a gentle concave at the bottom of the range.
Giving similar tones to the DX7 with it's multi stage envelopes.

As an example on the Matrixbrute - 3 oscillator bass sound using the 24db ladder filter.
First half with stock filter decay envelope shape.
Then the decay is modulated by envelope 3 by +50, with the attack time of the envelope adjusted for the desired steeper slope shape

Gives you that "thonk" sound as the filter decay moves from fast into much slower slope
https://soundcloud.com/coolcolj/matrixb ... -modulated

[simmo75]

A nice touch with the envelopes is you can choose between 3rd wave or the original PPG envelopes.

Can the mod matrix self modulate the envelope stage shapes to change the slopes?
I like doing that on my synths that have such a feature to create DX7 style multistage envelope bonky percussive tones

Not sure what you mean.
If you mean can you use an envelope to module the ADSR then yes

I meant, to use another envelope to modulate the filter envelope decay stage, so the slope changes from stock to a steeper initial slope moving into a gentle concave at the bottom of the range.
Giving similar tones to the DX7 with it's multi stage envelopes.

As an example on the Matrixbrute - 3 oscillator bass sound using the 24db ladder filter.
First half with stock filter decay envelope shape.
Then the decay is modulated by envelope 3 by +50, with the attack time of the envelope adjusted for the desired steeper slope shape

Gives you that "thonk" sound as the filter decay moves from fast into much slower slope
https://soundcloud.com/coolcolj/matrixb ... -modulated

Gotcha, yeah that’s doable. The mod matrix it really impressive

[Constructed Identity]

Since you have a Trigon, which I also have.
Does the 3rd Wave envelopes and VCA get as snappy and punchy as the Trigon?

And for sure the Trigon can sound so much like a Minimoog. The way the waveforms and oscillators mesh together had my Minimoog sensor tingling (used to own one), and is just as snappy/punchy

I just liquidated a 2022 Model-D Reissue... in part to pay for a Montage M8x.
While that one note can be glorious, it's just not the most practical choice.
I was hanging onto it because of nostalgia.

I like the sound of Trigon-6. It can get punchy and or aggressive.
I'm probably going to grab the module... so I can have 12-voices of polyphony.
One of the first things I do with any new synth... is program a Moog lead type sound.
Simple sound... but it reveals a lot about the character of the oscillators and filter.
IMO, Trigon's keyboard is better than the 2022 Reissue Model-D.
Great for quick runs.
If the Trigon had 16-voices... and added a State Variable Filter, it would be a monster.
Price would also be monstrous.

3rd Wave can get pretty punchy with the EGs.
I've been messing with a Taurus type sound:
3 Oscillators set to Sawtooth, slightly detuned, Unison set to 2 voices
With the sustain control backed down just a bit on the Amp and Filter EGs, there's a healthy attack.

The latest v1.6 firmware (released last night) fixed a problem when bending pitch with Free Running Oscillator mode enabled. There was audible zipper noise (pops/ticks).
That's now gone. Super smooth bends and LFO pitch modulation

There's a lot to like about both synths.
Both are pretty easy to use.

Thanks for mentioning the new firmware! DL today

[zerocrossing]

I've had a listen to a few demos but tbh I didn't delve too deeply. 3rd wave is one of those synths with a quite definite character that you either love or hate. Personally, I didn't love it. Wavetable type sounds just grate on me for some reason. It screamed out the original synth character (which I didn't like either) . Filters are OK but I characterize it's core sound as metallic. And some of the advanced modulation stuff was a bit too glitchy for me. If you like PPG type sound, then this is a great synth. Modernized and extended. Not for me, though I can appreciate a character synth. Rather that than some vanilla blandness (which is oberheim for me). The price is high, but not outlandish compared to say Prophets etc. If you like the sound of someone carving up sheet metal with a chain saw, then it's probably good value...

I own the keyboard version, it doesn’t sound metallic in the slightest!
I think you’re confused with Waldorfs tone.

3rd Wave has some serious low end, it’s really impressive, but YouTube does it no favors…

It’s definitely very PPG. It’s definitely worth demoing through monitors or good headphones, and not Youtube.

The analog filter is lush too.

Can you do a favor for me? I'm having trouble finding anyone who's done the headphone-input feedback trick and I want to confirm it's possible. If you could post the results, that would be even better.

[Korg Supporter]

A nice touch with the envelopes is you can choose between 3rd wave or the original PPG envelopes.

Can the mod matrix self modulate the envelope stage shapes to change the slopes?
I like doing that on my synths that have such a feature to create DX7 style multistage envelope bonky percussive tones

I think the FM abilities of the 3rd wave are not well known. It can use any osc to modulate the frequency of another osc. "Linear FM like the DK7", it states in the manual and since I spent most of yesterday (after watching the Vikings) making patches, I love the FM sound it can make. Just like a dedicated FM synth, it can get into real gnarly territory fast, but the sweet spots are wonderful.

What I don't like on this synth is that most of the factory patches -500- were not well made. I can understand not spending a lot of time on the recreations of original PPG patches, but to not use any of the mod matrix or great sounding effects on patch after patch is a crime. This synth has the most complex effects possibilities than anything since the Kurzwiel K2000RS I owned years ago.
I should post a sound demo of the one with the echoplex tape delays on the two parts panned hard left and right.

Yes, and you can even use the oscillators as sources in the mod matrix!

[CoolColJ]

I recently picked up a second hand Korg Prologue 16 and Trigon-6, both in pristine condition.

I liked how both have stereo voice spread feature, that keeps some voices in the centre, and others progressively spread wider at low and moderate settings. It's only at max settings does it go full left and right.

This sounds more natural to me, and allows a choice from anything between full mono and full hard left/right ping pong.

If Groove Synthesis is reading this, consider it a feature request

Even better, prioritize the lowest notes played for the centre voices in the stereo spread cooge
I prefer my bass notes in the centre than ping ponging left and right with my chords/melodies

When I was watching this video - it got tiring and annoying just hearing everything hard left/right



Also the analog patches in the video still sound digital to me, nice, but there is some digital traits to it.

[Jim Roseberry]

When I was watching this video - it got tiring and annoying just hearing everything hard left/right



Also the analog patches in the video still sound digital to me, nice, but there is some digital traits to it.

FWIW, There is a Pan Spread knob in the upper right.
It goes from Mono... to spreading out the voices hard left/right.

I'm guessing Jim just enjoys the stereo width
Can sound as large as the M8x actually is

Here's an example of how the 3rd Wave sounds doing "analog".
It may not be perfect, but it's in the ballpark and sounds huge.
Just a little delay. Nothing else to enhance the sound...
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0638/ ... 1698853536

[Jim Roseberry]

Trigon-6 module arrives today.
Need to get the Trigon-6 and Module "Poly-Chained"
Hope that it's not overly cumbersome.

[CoolColJ]

When I was watching this video - it got tiring and annoying just hearing everything hard left/right



Also the analog patches in the video still sound digital to me, nice, but there is some digital traits to it.

FWIW, There is a Pan Spread knob in the upper right.
It goes from Mono... to spreading out the voices hard left/right.

I'm guessing Jim just enjoys the stereo width
Can sound as large as the M8x actually is

Here's an example of how the 3rd Wave sounds doing "analog".
It may not be perfect, but it's in the ballpark and sounds huge.
Just a little delay. Nothing else to enhance the sound...
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0638/ ... 1698853536

yes, I heard him use it and explain it, but it goes from mono to left/right with nothing inbetween, there are no centre voices. My Polybrute, Trigon-6 and Prologue 16 have much more natural sounding stereo spreads that retain centre voices, and everything inbetween that and left/right in continously variable amounts from minimum to maximum settings

The way the oscillators mix together still sounds digital to me. Sounds more like chorus than actual analog oscillators mixing together. That's one thing I have noticed in all the 3rd Wave demo, it always has this chorused character to its sound

When I compared my Matrixbrute to my Trigon-6 and how different they sounded with 2 or more oscillators, despite using the same type of filter, and sounding so similar with just a single sawtooth.
It made me realize the way analog oscillators blend together is a large part of a synths character and how they vary so much between synths, despite having similar waveforms.

Very noticeable between Pro 2 (DSP oscillators) and Pro 3 (analog)

[CoolColJ]

Good overview video

[CoolColJ]

here are my Trigon-6, Polybrute and Prologue 16 doing a 4 note arp

Mono, then slowly turning up to medium, and then to max setting.
All three sound pretty much the same, with retaining a centre voice, and spread from full left to right.
Sounds more natural to me, especially with headphones on.

If the 3rd Wave had an option to do this instead of full left/right, only, it would be nice

https://soundcloud.com/coolcolj/arp-ste ... g-prologue

[Jim Roseberry]

I should mention in the above sound example for the 3rd-Wave, I did have Unison using two voices... so there would be some additional "chorus" from that second voice being detuned.

Just listened with headphones to both the 3rd-Wave and Trigon-6 implementations of "Pan Spread".
You are correct that the 3rd-Wave doesn't place a voice in the center... it's left/right (amount determined by the knob).
The 3rd-Wave developers are extremely responsive. I'm sure they could address this in a firmware update.
They've already improved the analog emulation (since it was first released).
This seems a little odd... given the Sequential heritage.
3rd-Wave is obviously manufactured at the same plant.
It's packaged identically to the newer Sequential synths.

I too am debating whether to keep the Trigon-6 keyboard and module.
Together, they're well over $5k for a 12-voice analog synth.

[CoolColJ]

I shot them an email and they replied

The pan spread was meant to emulate what is on the PPG Wave, but your suggestion about having the voices alternate between left, center, and right is interesting and we will consider for updates in the future

On further investigation into these various stereo spread behaviour with polyphonic chords - it seems they start off as full mono, and then as soon as the pan spread knob is turned, one voice shoots out to left/right, while the rest stays in the centre.
And progressively more voices move left/right as you progress the knob further.
Until its the opposite, with most of the voices left/right and one in the centre, at max position.

[Constructed Identity]

I wonder if people would watch a vid of me making patches...
I made one with express pedal controlling pan position where they start out far L-R and goto center-the manual explained that the pan position rolls so that if you add number to 100% R it will roll to left side etc.
Every day I've turned this thing on I end up making a custom patch or two to cover-up the ones that came with this thing.
I have to add modwheel and expression petal to the mod matrix and often add something to after touch.

My impression after a week with the 3rd Wave is that they rushed all the factory patches.
Waldorf and Groove Synthesis have one thing in common: they sell synthesizers with after touch enabled keyboards then make no use of them in factory patches.

[CoolColJ]

I wonder if people would watch a vid of me making patches...
I made one with express pedal controlling pan position where they start out far L-R and goto center-the manual explained that the pan position rolls so that if you add number to 100% R it will roll to left side etc.
Every day I've turned this thing on I end up making a custom patch or two to cover-up the ones that came with this thing.
I have to add modwheel and expression petal to the mod matrix and often add something to after touch.

My impression after a week with the 3rd Wave is that they rushed all the factory patches.
Waldorf and Groove Synthesis have one thing in common: they sell synthesizers with after touch enabled keyboards then make no use of them in factory patches.

I'd watch it.

I am considering a 3rd Wave, and no way to try one in person unfortunately