Group Buys - what's the verdict?

[ScarKord]

I think they are a very great idea and I've taken full advantage of several of the offers.

For the developers, surely it's better to get 10 people paying half price than 2 people paying full price? Also once you've bought the product, you are more than likely going to buy extra sounds etc.

Wusikstation with 'The Second Wave' add-on is a good example of this.

[Caleb]

If developer(s) thinks product is kinda crap, dont feel motivated about the project, improving it and limit support to fix the few bugs it could appear (if any...). Group Buys, Discounts, Whatever we want to call it = excellent idea. And if does some extra cash after : great.

Personally, as user, I would think it twice before getting a software tool wich is lot advertised in group buys or impressive discounts and expecting it will be updated and improved a lot. In the other side, if I think the software in its current state fullfit my needs, fine.

Yeah - now this is something I felt a little paranoid about myself when entering my first Group Buy especially on a new product.

You could quite easily reach over 80% of your target audience on one Group Buy for some products I imagine if they hype is enough. And again - depending on the nature of the product - the promises made about the price of upgrades etc. it might be more worthwhile to start working on the next product.

OK - so I get a little paranoid sometimes.

But I don't think I could say the same about Group Buys on audio content however. It's not software as such so the deal is the same whether you get it new or in a Group Buy I would have thought.

Caleb

[Meffy]

Arguru, you're right to say that every buyer must pick carefully, and be sure a product fits their needs.

Of the group buys I've joined -- Cameleon 5000, z3ta+, and Sonic Synth 1 -- I knew the first two were top-rated synths that were loved by many KvR members already. Squids was entirely truthful that the SS1 buy was old stock being moved out at a bargain price to make way for a newer product, and told what benefits -- like $400 in upgrade discounts! =o.O= -- buyers could expect. (In the end we got even more than promised on the SS1 deal.)

In all three cases I tried the demos, listened to sample tunes, and was pleased enough to buy. :-) I wouldn't have jumped in without some research first.

Wopelka, I agree with you too -- I've never felt cheated when other people got a better price on something I'd bought, except when the great deal appeared immediately after I bought. When that happened, what I thought was this: "Ah well, nine great decisions, one not as good. I can live with 90% bargains." Not "Aie! I've been ripped off!" *tears shirt* ;-)

Meffy

[ScarKord]

Wopelka, I agree with you too -- I've never felt cheated when other people got a better price on something I'd bought, except when the great deal appeared immediately after I bought. When that happened, what I thought was this: "Ah well, nine great decisions, one not as good. I can live with 90% bargains." Not "Aie! I've been ripped off!" *tears shirt*

Meffy

Quite often, you find that the developers are very reasonable with this kind of thing.

I remember just after I bought SS1, they bought out an 'everything' bundle that included Omnisynth and 5 e-roms, for a bargain price. In that case, I wrote to esoundz and asked if they would let me pay the difference between my original price and the new bundle price to get the e-roms and Omnisynth and they were more than happy to oblige.

It's always worth asking as long as you are polite about it. The worst they can say is no

[TheWall]

when you buy a product, you agree to pay a definite price for that product. it means you think the product is worth that price and are happy to get it for that cost.

therefore, you shouldn't be put off when later new customers benefit from a reduced price (or a free release as it has been the case for daHornet (i bought it) or, more recently, Tracktion).

The problem is, 'value' is a relative perception. That's the essence of what drives group-buy IMO. 'value' can be intimidated by many factors, and can be an emotional thing at times.

Both sides have their POV. Only time can judge which works for whom or not...

EDIT: regarding arguru's comment. Well, marketing is inevitable in any business. It has little to do with coding and can be seperated from each other. The problem is that very few devs in the VST community can do proper marketing...

[Meffy]

It's always worth asking as long as you are polite about it. The worst they can say is no

Yes indeedy. This is one of the guiding principles of my life: Go ahead and ask. What's the worst that could happen?

Meffy

[Phaedo]

My two cents...
I've been part of one group buy, the recent Kjaerhus push. I bought something I really wanted (GCO) and threw in the bundle as well. For me, I'd planned to buy it but hadn't. Many of us sit on the fence for a long time and then move onto something else, never buying products. Good deals are a good way of getting us out of the woodwork.

As for me, I was quite happy to hup the group buy in group buy threads, and I could conceivably have mentioned it were it relevant to another thread, but didn't in practice (because it wasn't). I don't really want KVR to be spammed with group buy messages, but to be honest I don't think it is right now, so as long as things stay the way they are, everything's fine.

Anyway, what I've said a million times to people: don't just buy something because there's a deal on it. I get the feeling that a lot of gear-hounds could do with spending more time on actually generating tunes. I definitely could...

[Squids]

I think it's a good idea. It's interesting anyway. There's certainly the possibility for both the user and the seller to benefit (nothing wrong with that). I agree with the Rabbit. It's not really greedy because the more people buy the LESS you get! I mean, it makes up for it in quantity sure but actually if you were to sell that product normally and be PATIENT over time you'd actually get more (assuming it was a successful product). However, there are some benefits to the "condensed" sales it can bring in so in the end it can be worth it.

For a company like us, it is only worth it for custom products outside of our normal range or products we're getting rid of and as Meffy and others explained this was not a secret when we were doing the SS1 group buy, in fact it was said from the beginning that it was being used as an experiment on the "last run" on a product as opposed to just a blow out. To be honest, it ended up a lot cheaper than it would have been if we did a blow out. But, that's because it was big!

Hey, if you wonder if KVR likes group buys then even just looking at the Cameleon and SS1 group buy threads and how large they are tells you something. I think the SS1 thread is the most viewed thread on all of KVR! I mean that's over Donkey Tugger's Putte gifs and everything. (But no one has posted more than Vurt still I don't believe. and yet I don't think he even posted in that thread although he must have.)

The last group buy we did on Mellotrons and Chamberlins went well too on a different expectation level. It's more esoteric but I was surprised to see how many people appreciate that kind of thing (like me).

This 3rd one was done by user request to keep doing them. It's going pretty good. It's dropped down another level today. It's not going as FAST as the others did and the thread isn't as electric. Maybe that's my fault because I've been busy and I threw out all I got at once. But, it's an amazing deal and our hottest selling libraries are drums. It does have a mix of classic and new material. It could be considered Sonic Reality's "Best of" drum library that is also a sound module (if you don't already have ST2). Theoretically it should be another good group buy. It kind of depends on the group. I don't see the same degree of word of mouth going on it like the other two. Perhaps people don't know exactly what to expect from it. That's why I am doing a video demo this week just to be sure people can see how cool it is. That might inspire more word of mouth.

Although, if people are too delicate about spreading the word it won't work. Also, if they get flamed too hard for trying to spread the word that won't work either. I think the way to go about it is to recommend it just as you would ANY other product that would suit someone's needs. You can just add in the urgency of the timing and the opportunity to get it for less the more people join. There's nothing wrong with doing a search for people asking for a great source for drums or people looking for drum sounds or a drum module on any forum. It's certainly not unethical even though you benefit if people join the group. I am sure you are doing them a FAVOR by saving THEM the money too.

For me, what I think will help our group buys is:

1. If it is a custom product to make it available DURING the group buy so people can talk about it. Trust only goes so far. We're thankful that you guys trust that we'll do it up good. The last two group buys show our track record well for this. But there's nothing like listening to people's reaction to the real thing.

2. There should be the possibility to have the pre-order not be charged until it ships. This is something our system can't do at the moment but I've been asking for it from our web developers. So, we'll have that soon I hope (for the next group buy... IF we do another one that is).

3. There is no three but it seemed weird to end on 2. Actually I am sure there is a three and a four etc. It's all a learning experience for us. If you guys didn't want them we'd stop. It's a lot of work! Especially the way we do them. Our shipping guys want to kill me everytime we do it. So, I can go either way on these.

But, it's supposed to be fun as well as satisfying for all involved. If there is too much thought or concern about it then the fun factor can go away. Sometimes thinking too much about something can kill it too.

It was interesting to see what you guys had to say about it though. I figured you guys are for them because they get you products for less money. Who doesn't want that?

[Meffy]

I have just one caveat.

Money runs out. Too many group buys in too short a span of time will tap the potential customer base out. I couldn't participate in the Kjaerhus group buy, and won't be able to nab that EWQLSO either. *shrug* Life.

How to balance the limited funds of individual buyers with our collective constant clamor for goodies? I dunno. Guesswork? :-)

Meffy

[Squids]

You have a good point Meffy. The other thing I would do is spread them out a little to give more people a chance. It's a catch 22 if the idea is that people can SAVE money but then with so many group buys at the same time they may end up spending MORE money (or frustrated because they want to).

I don't know what other group buys are happening. I thought I came in good timing starting on the final day of another one here. But, then a few others cropped up (or I didn't see them) and anyway we just did two others in the last 4 months. Maybe they need to be spread out more. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

[Meffy]

*nod* Same here -- idle thoughts. I wouldn't really want the good deals to slow down just because I can't pick up on them. I'm going to miss out on a lot of bargains, that's a fact, no matter whether from retailers or group buys or whatever. S'okay, there will arrive a new marvel next month, or next...

Meffy

[arguru]

There's also another point I just forgot.

As small developer, I would go carefully with Group Buys and heavy discounts. Very carefully because in such small market like audio software, everyone knows everyone. If you use to abuse of this tactics to make more profit, the community can mark you as cheapware. in a future, if you go on more serious or ambitius project that u find it should be high-priced according hard work you do/did, ppl would prefer to wait a bit expecting you'll apply big discounts in the thing, nobody will make purchases of your product if not discounted or group-sold.

And other argument: user / product support costs money and time. It should be properly priced, a overlowered price can turn against the developer(s) later when time of support more users come.

[Squids]

I agree with Arguru there, especially the less products you have. There has to be a reason it is less and a reason it is regularly more or the developer can ruin the regular sales potentially. It's more dangerous for the developer than it is for the user. To the user it is just a great deal. To the developer it could be shooting themself in the foot. That's why the only way I'll do it is with a product being discontinued or a custom made product that is only available that way. I wouldn't be able to devalue any of our flagship products. I mean, even if I wanted to (which I don't) I wouldn't be able to do that because our distributors and retailers depend on being able to have continued sales of that product at its regular price.

So, group buys are a bit of a nitche thing. I don't know how many can really exist successfully at the same time though. It depends on who the audience is and what level of spending they are used to. I have a sense of what the KVR community is like in that regard from my experience. It's not the same as say the market in LA where you have tons of composers and producers who wouldn't blink to get all of them (although they can also pay regular price).

But, Meffy's right. They're just there and each one may appeal to a different person or perhaps you have to pick what you want the most. Maybe you can find a way to get a few things by selling off something (ironically perhaps in the same marketing forum!). When there's a will there's a way. It helps if the person doing the group buy is flexible too. We try to be as much as we can.

[Meffy]

Arguru, you really are a guru. :-) Good thoughts.

Meffy

[Midiworks]

Remember Christmas ?

How would it feel to have that every week of the year ?



The idea of Christmas would be dead, so would be sales too.

Do I really need to say more ?