Jobs composing/producing music for commercials???...

[John Vulich]

So true! Sometimes I just tell 'em I fixed it and they believe me.

How many times have you exhausted every possibility only to come back to a watered down version of the initial concept that they pretend to like but the truth is they are really too burned out to keep changing it any more?

It's really an epidemic in the industry. These execs have no clue what works, so as long as they keep changing things they have this illusion of comfort because it makes them feel in control of doing... something.

Ahhh, I've been doing this shit too long!

[soulkraka]

speaking of exhausted...what are doing up at 6 in the morning john?

[John Vulich]

speaking of exhausted...what are doing up at 6 in the morning john?

I'm a fuckin' incurable night owl... have been all my life.

And you? Don't tell me you are just waking up!

[soulkraka]

havent slept yet *sigh*

[dystonia_ek]

So true! Sometimes I just tell 'em I fixed it and they believe me.

How many times have you exhausted every possibility only to come back to a watered down version of the initial concept that they pretend to like but the truth is they are really too burned out to keep changing it any more?

It's really an epidemic in the industry. These execs have no clue what works, so as long as they keep changing things they have this illusion of comfort because it makes them feel in control of doing... something.

Ahhh, I've been doing this shit too long!

Same with graphic work for the industry, which I also do - inevitably the very first pitch is the strongest, then they make you jump through hoops for a few weeks, then, inevitably, back to a variation on the original concept. Most of the problem seems to be that at most studios there are too many people involved in approving a piece of work, and they never agree.

[John Vulich]

havent slept yet *sigh*

Yeah, I'm about to hit it soon.

We should get together sometime. A friend of mine has a divey little studio here on Ventura Blvd. We usually und up there on weekends, after getting trashed at the local pub, and jam 'till all hours of the morning.

A lot of good players show up and my friend has a pretty strict policy of not allowing cover tunes. Which is good considering I can't play any!

[soulkraka]

sounds good

[John Vulich]

Same with graphic work for the industry, which I also do - inevitably the very first pitch is the strongest, then they make you jump through hoops for a few weeks, then, inevitably, back to a variation on the original concept. Most of the problem seems to be that at most studios there are too many people involved in approving a piece of work, and they never agree.

Yeah, I seriously consider it a bona fide disease in the echelons of management.

I've done a shit-load of episodic TV work. At one time I was supervising 5 TV shows at once! Sometimes I didn't even know what day/week/month/year it was. The only saving grace is, that for most part, there is so little time for micro-managing that you get to go with you initial concept with very minor change. It really taught me to just go with my first instincts. I learned that these truly are your best ideas. If you do have a lot of time, you, or someone else, will just second guess it to death, usualy because of a lack of confidence.

[HHaynes]

There are a few posts here that parrot the old saw of "it's who you know" as though talent has nothing to do with it. WRONG. You've got to have talent first. Then you *must* have the ability to deliver on deadline. Then, you must be able to find the person who's responsible for the decision, and be in front of their face when they're making the decision. These folks make decisions for a living, and when the heat is on they don't have time or energy to sit back and watch demo reels or listen to CDs like they're killing time in a Starbucks. That means that you should be around when they're NOT under the gun - which means you've got to be around enough that they WANT you to be around when it's time to shut down and get a beer/coffee whatever. That puts you in a position to take advantage of a quick-decision fest and get your foot in the door. That eventually leads to a relationship of relative trust, but then again, getting in the door is only part of staying in the room.

Once you've got the gig you have to eat a ton of shit and keep smiling without showing dingleberries between your teeth (implied in some posts above). Once you've established a reputation of being able to deliver high quality product, and shape it to the demands of the project, *and* deliver on time and on budget - *then* you start to get the gigs that include a larger budget.

Getting that first opportunity to assert that you have the ability to deliver good music on time is NOT EASY. In essence, it requires that someone take a leap of faith that you can handle the gig. A great demo reel doesn't mean much, as you could have taken months or years to put the music together, and that's a non-starter in the commercial and TV biz (and just about any biz for that matter). So you've got to find a way to show your ability while someone is running a stopwatch. I was able to pick up a gig by scoring a 60-second commercial spot that another composer had already submitted. But he was looking for someone to collaborate on another project, so used that as a litmus test to see if I was full of malarky. I turned it around in a day - he gave me notes - I made the adjustments in another day - and we've been working together ever since.

Finding someone that's willing to take a chance on your talent AND professionalism means that you've got to be in people's "space" long enough for them to notice you and for SOMEONE to eventually decide to trust you on a gig. That means you've got to have the goods - get out there, remain relentlessly positive, and act like you already have the gig.

[John Vulich]

sounds good

Do you play keys? He has a cranky old B3, Whirly and some EMU keyboard. Sometimes I bring my Laptop but I'm always afraid some drunkard is gonna spill a beer on it.

I need to get a "beater" Laptop I suppose.

[Sepheritoh]

The most interesting part of TV & radio commercials are that 90% of the music is really crap. That does not include those in this discussion and here at KvR, because I know you guys are making the other 10%.

Most of the time when I hear an add I just think "I hope they did not pay that guy to produce that music".

[John Vulich]

There are a few posts here that parrot the old saw of "it's who you know" as though talent has nothing to do with it. WRONG. You've got to have talent first. Then you *must* have the ability to deliver on deadline. Then, you must be able to find the person who's responsible for the decision, and be in front of their face when they're making the decision. These folks make decisions for a living, and when the heat is on they don't have time or energy to sit back and watch demo reels or listen to CDs like they're killing time in a Starbucks. That means that you should be around when they're NOT under the gun - which means you've got to be around enough that they WANT you to be around when it's time to shut down and get a beer/coffee whatever. That puts you in a position to take advantage of a quick-decision fest and get your foot in the door. That eventually leads to a relationship of relative trust, but then again, getting in the door is only part of staying in the room.

Once you've got the gig you have to eat a ton of shit and keep smiling without showing dingleberries between your teeth (implied in some posts above). Once you've established a reputation of being able to deliver high quality product, and shape it to the demands of the project, *and* deliver on time and on budget - *then* you start to get the gigs that include a larger budget.

Getting that first opportunity to assert that you have the ability to deliver good music on time is NOT EASY. In essence, it requires that someone take a leap of faith that you can handle the gig. A great demo reel doesn't mean much, as you could have taken months or years to put the music together, and that's a non-starter in the commercial and TV biz (and just about any biz for that matter). So you've got to find a way to show your ability while someone is running a stopwatch. I was able to pick up a gig by scoring a 60-second commercial spot that another composer had already submitted. But he was looking for someone to collaborate on another project, so used that as a litmus test to see if I was full of malarky. I turned it around in a day - he gave me notes - I made the adjustments in another day - and we've been working together ever since.

Finding someone that's willing to take a chance on your talent AND professionalism means that you've got to be in people's "space" long enough for them to notice you and for SOMEONE to eventually decide to trust you on a gig. That means you've got to have the goods - get out there, remain relentlessly positive, and act like you already have the gig.

I agree with everything in your post except for "needing" musical talent. I have 2 words... Hans Zimmer. Sorry but I think his music sucks ass and he's the biggest thing in soundtracks right now.

Sometimes marketing talent can take you further.

[Just Float]

Can I ask what the process of making this kind of music is like? Do you just load up whatever you can find and start playing some random melody or what. How can you make music under such pressure?

[wrench45us]

How can you make music under such pressure?

whoa,
it sounds a lot like a job doesn't it?

[HHaynes]

I agree with everything in your post except for "needing" musical talent. I have 2 words... Hans Zimmer. Sorry but I think his music sucks ass and he's the biggest thing in soundtracks right now.

Sometimes marketing talent can take you further.

Well - OK - perhaps we should substitute the word "talent" with a better word - SKILL - and get to a terminology that we all agree on. But I think we might be splitting hairs - based on a differing (relative) view of what constitutes "talent". I consider Hans Zimmer to be plenty talented for what he does (including getting a cadre of unknowns with much more musical ability than he has to essentially ghost-write for him). But that's all beside the point. In fact, to me, a guy that can put together a killer groove in some looping tool but *cannot* sight-read a four-part hymn out of a hymnal can still be considered to be "talented".

I went to conservatory and passed a piano competency exam which included sight-reading out of a hymnal as well as accompanying a soloist on a piece of music I had just seen the day before. In my view - that experience and preparation has as much to do with my ability to deliver on a deadline as anything else I've done in my life that now allows me to perform well under pressure. Just because a loop-building DJ *can't* perform that task doesn't mean he won't do well on a commercial spot gig - or make it big as the next Moby. He/she is at least making musical judgements and acting on them in some useful manner.

If this was a gig that someone devoid of any musical talent could do - then the director would grab the migrant worker that's cleaning up craft services at his shoot and say "Hey Paco - wanna score my TV commercial?" Sometimes when we hear a terrible music bed under a commercial, we blame the composer - but in my view, it's almost always bad decisions made at levels above the creative output of the composer that makes for an off-putting experience. And besides, there are not many commercials that are designed to woo musicians and composers, so it may not matter what we think in the end, anyway. We're just a cog in a wheel. Once you're "at home" with that fact, then you'll be able to deal with the incongruities in this business with less stress.