ACID Pro 5 - 2005 PAR Excellence Award winner

[No name]

While we are on the topic of Acid, How do you all feel about Acids effects and all?

[billybk1]

While we are on the topic of Acid, How do you all feel about Acids effects and all?

They are adequate, but nothing to really write home about. Except for the new updated tempo-sync based fx, included in ACID Pro 5, which can add some interesting effects, none of the original native FX have been updated, since version 1.0, I believe, and are definately showing their age. The fx cover all the bases (eq, compressors, reverb etc.), but they all have the same generic interface and the overall sound, is rather medicore, at best, IMO. I hardly ever use ACID's native fx. I much prefer using my UAD-1 plugins or third party native VST fx from Voxengo.

[cold c]

The installation of MSDE installs a service that is constantly on regardless of whether Media manager is activated or not, and still active even when ACID PRO 5 is not running. A general aim of good DAW configuration is usually for fewer constantly active Windows services.

If you are talking about the MSSQL$SONY_MEDIAMGR, there is an option to permanantly close it upon exit.

ACID PRO 5 does not stop the MSDE (sqlserver) service when ACID exits, even when media manager is disabled.

There is an option to permanantly close the MSSQL$SONY_MEDIAMGR upon exit.

Yes I know, we already discussed this earlier in the thread, the option is hidden and the feature doesn't behave as it should when disabling media manager in the preferences (as I said in my previous reply).

Poor MIDI functionality (it hasn't improved in the recent versions).

Basic MIDI functions were only first introduced, from scratch, in ACID 4.

And MIDI was first introduced in 3.0x, over 3 years ago...

Since the initial 4.0 release these MIDI/VSTi related improvements have been made:


...snip...




MIDI functions, have been a contant work in progress, since 4.0. To expect, the MIDI functionality, to be on par with the likes of Cakewalk or Steinberg (companies that have been doing MIDI for 20 years), is a bit naive. For me, the MIDI functionality, in ACID, is more than I'll ever use. When I want to do heavy duty MIDI, I'll rewire to SONAR or Project 5. For an odd MIDI track here or there, ACID Pro 5b, works fine for me. Of course, everyone's expectations are different. Truth be told, if SONY, did not do another thing to improve the MIDI functionality, in ACID, I would never notice it, or care, as I rarely use it anyway.
I have much more advanced apps to handle those chores.

Other sequencers such as Tracktion and energyXT managed to get better MIDI (and VST) functionality in their 1.x versions.

By the way, I asked if you knew if the developers would be addressing these issues, but thanks for your opinions anyway.

No control surface ability

I am sure this would be a welcome improvement. Not for me though, as all I have is a Contour Shuttle Pro, which works fine, in ACID 5, as it is.

I think the issue is partly that they haven't decided whether they want to keep ACID PRO as a loop tool (in which case they could also make a VSTi version of it), or if they want it to compete with other sequencers in which case they should add sequencer features like control surface/MIDI remote support.

BTW, a control surface can be as simple as a MIDI knob box, this feature should go hand in hand with recordable automation if implemented.

Mouse automation can't be recorded

Not sure what you mean here. I do all my automation via the envelope nodes, which is my preferred method.

This means that movement of VST plugin GUI parameters with the mouse pointer can't be recorded (as it can be with other sequencer applications).

The envelopes all on the same track become less clear as more parameters are added.

You do have the option to show/hide the volume, pan and parameter envelopes, as needed. You also, have the option of adjusting/changing any envelope color, for better clarity. I rarely have more than a handful of parameter envelopes on any given track, but I would imagine if I had scores of envelopes, it would get a little messy. It has not been a problem thus far for me.

I know they can be shown/hidden etc. but I'm not sure how they really thought that was the best way to implement it.

The challenge/response copy protection

The ol' pick your poison scenario. Of course, I would much prefer, Cakewalk's CP method, of just a serial number. But I much prefer Sony's challenge/response method to a silly dongle(Steinberg), PACE or ILOK. I can even install my Sony apps (Vegas, DVD Architect, Sound Forge & ACID), on multiple computers, at the same time. In fact, I have ACID Pro activated and open on both my laptop and desktop DAW's, as we speak. Just last week, a did a total, re-format & re-install, of XP and all my apps, on my laptop, including all my Sony apps, with zero problems getting immediately activated @ 2AM, in the morning. A real non-issue, as far as I'm concerned.

I'd prefer a simple serial, and AFAICT the new C/R scheme didn't prevent people using unlicensed versions of it. I also use Steinberg dongles for my Cubases and their system is also annoying for other reasons IMO.

The repeated crashes on scanning for plugins

The latest 5.0b is a lot more forgiving and does not constantly rescan, every plugin, each time you open ACID. I have about 100 VST/VSTi plugins and I recall only one plugin (I think it was the Edirol Super Quartet), that I had a problem with. My UAD-1 VST plugins work like a dream, with full PDC, and full automation, in ACID, BTW.

Yes it only crashed approximately four times the last time I tried installing it, whereas back in version 4.0 it was many many more.

Interface is clunky, not smooth by modern DAW standards.

This is all a matter of personal preference, of course. I love the GUI, and it's ease of use and uncluttered interface, keyboard shortcuts, the mouse wheel scroll zoom, the separate editing playback head, the gapless editing, etc, etc, etc... is precisely why I enjoy using ACID. You want to see a clunky, cluttered interface, check out SAW Studio (which costs thousands, for the full version), now there is a cluttered interface. But, many users seem to like it.

An interesting comparison, I know that some users that don't try SAW studio precisely because of the interface.

I would agree that it could be worse, but that isn't a reason to neglect the interface, for example, is it still only possible to view one VSTi GUI at a time?

Sony increased the normal upgrade price from $99 to $150

The normal upgrade price has always been $149.00, as long as I remember and I bought every upgrade since version 1.0, in 1999. There is usually a short introductory period, for $99.00, for upgrader's. Plus this time, whether you needed or not, you got some extra value (a loop CD and NI's Express Keyboards), in the deal.

That doesn't explain what happened to the introductory period. Or perhaps the price is to cover the cost of licensing those plugins from NI? I think the NI plugins are included in the product, but they charge to ship the 'free' loop CD to outside the USA.

Either way, I'd rather have the original cheaper price without the bolt-on extras.

Lack of audio multitrack ability:

• There are already various audio track types including "one shot", "looped" and "beatmapped", so why not introduce another for multi-track audio?? For example, one that can have multiple audio parts recorded on to it, just take the track type from another of the sonyfo software applications (vegas etc.).

I agree some multi-track capability would be a good thing. I would further like to do away with that Record dialog box, as well. A live Input Monitoring option would be high on my list too. I would love to be able to patch Amplitude or a Nigel amp sim in and play my Les Paul through it, in realtime.
I think these would be some ideal new features, for ACID Pro 6.

I agree, there shouldn't be modal dialog boxes in the middle of a creative process such as that.

I was also disappointed to find that ReWire with ACID PRO 5 doesn't work without minor pops/clicks at the loop point when slaved to SX3 on my system, it is probably an issue with SX3 + my audio card drivers, but it's difficult to tell as support from all companies has been minimal. Perhaps if I get another audio interface in future I'll try to get it working again.

Hmmmm......I have not had any problems rewiring ACID Pro 5 to either SONAR 4.02 or Project 5 2.0, the project looping is glitch free. I have a friend who uses a Pro Tools system, and it is working fine for him, as well.

I also tried it with the motherboard's sound device and it did the same thing so it is probably an SX3 + drivers related issue.

You missed out some of my earlier points, but if you (somehow) have contact with any of the developers please put all of those points to them including those about the VST automation.

While we are on the topic of Acid, How do you all feel about Acids effects and all?

I think they could increase the quality and usability of the effects greatly (and ACID PRO as a whole) if they included native versions of the sony oxford plugins, I realise this is unlikely but if they want to make some impact in the audio software market they need to make bold moves such as this.

[cold c]

My UAD-1 VST plugins work like a dream, with full PDC, and full automation, in ACID, BTW.

BTW, no plugins are automatable on inserts of VSTi channels, not even the ones included in ACID. So there is no such thing as "full automation" currently in ACID.

And thanks to the decision to not allow MIDI to be routed to VST effects that support MIDI-input, there is no way to work around that particular ACID issue.

[billybk1]

My UAD-1 VST plugins work like a dream, with full PDC, and full automation, in ACID, BTW.

BTW, no plugins are automatable on inserts of VSTi channels, not even the ones included in ACID. So there is no such thing as "full automation" currently in ACID.

Since, by design, there is not an Insert FX facility available, for VSTi MIDI tracks, then how can there be automation for something that does not exist, in the first place. For the routing, that does exist there is full automation, of FX. What I meant though, as fully automatable, is as it pertains to using my UAD-1 DSP plugins, in the routing scheme that does exist. I call up my DreamVerb plugin and I have over 40 parameter's available, for automation, for instance. Whenever I have wanted to put fx, on a softsynth, I have always used the Insert Bux fx, which are fully automatable. Maybe, not the ideal solution, for some, but it works fine, for me.

And thanks to the decision to not allow MIDI to be routed to VST effects that support MIDI-input, there is no way to work around that particular ACID issue.

I can see that the vast majority of your issues with ACID 5, is with the MIDI functionality, or lack thereof. I can see if you relied on ACID Pro 5, to be
your primary MIDI workstation, there are certainly many area's that could use improvement/streamlining.
Hopefully, there will be attention given to this area, in the next version. Other than an odd basic
MIDI track here and there, I do most of my MIDI sequencing, in either SONAR or Project 5. The softsynth handling, recording and editing is just so much more fluid and advanced. I would certainly
never recommend ACID Pro 5, as a primary MIDI sequencer, except for the most basic tasks. When working in ACID, I spend more than 80%, of my time working with audio loops, 15% on audio tracks, and probably less than 5%, if that, on actual MIDI tasks. In fact, most of my ACID projects, before I import or rewire them to SONAR or Project 5, have no MIDI, at all.

[billybk1]

And MIDI was first introduced in 3.0x, over 3 years ago...

You are right, of course, I stand corrected.

[Cabinfever]

it's laughable this "maybe in the next version midi will be blah blah" line. that's what everyone asked for in the 20 or so months between version 4 and 5. what did they get ? sweet fa is what. now you say "maybe in the next version"

acid is a dead duck as sony's own dead forum shows.

if the sales in the retail outlet i go to are any guide, then boxed sales of 5 have been a disaster for sony.

will there even be a version 6 ? it might just be rolled back into sony's "super dooper music looper" app where it increasingly belongs....

[billybk1]

...as an old time acidpro user of many years, and a former forum regular its easy to see the difference on the board. that forum used to be buzzing. now its dead.

acid is a dead duck as sony's own dead forum shows.

This is from a bitter old former ACID user, with selective memory loss and an obvious axe to grind. FYI, by your own ACID flashback reasoning, ACID should as popular than ever based on total topic count, during various six month periods, on the ACID forum:

11/01/2000 - 5/20/2001 400+ total topics posted

11/01/2001 - 5/20/2002 800+ total topics posted
this is from the forum used to be buzzing 3.0 heydays, I guess

11/01/2002 - 5/20/2003 1100+ total topics posted
this is from the acidpro4 was a buggy disaster period

11/01/2003 - 5/20/2004 700+ total topics posted

Since ACID 5's release:
11/01/2004 - 5/20/2005 1000+ total topics posted

Yep, it sure appears to be dead alright. Not that I give much credence to topic count, but since you thought is was all so important and indicative of ACID's demise.........think again.

[cold c]

My UAD-1 VST plugins work like a dream, with full PDC, and full automation, in ACID, BTW.

BTW, no plugins are automatable on inserts of VSTi channels, not even the ones included in ACID. So there is no such thing as "full automation" currently in ACID.

Since, by design, there is not an Insert FX facility available, for VSTi MIDI tracks, then how can there be automation for something that does not exist, in the first place.

There are inserts available for the VSTi channels in the mixer (not 'VSTi MIDI tracks'), but they are not automatable. This is not by design, it is by lack of implementation.

For the routing, that does exist there is full automation, of FX. What I meant though, as fully automatable, is as it pertains to using my UAD-1 DSP plugins, in the routing scheme that does exist. I call up my DreamVerb plugin and I have over 40 parameter's available, for automation, for instance. Whenever I have wanted to put fx, on a softsynth, I have always used the Insert Bux fx, which are fully automatable. Maybe, not the ideal solution, for some, but it works fine, for me.

The busses are not fully automatable either, the effects parameters can't be automated, this is because ACID doesn't have anything like full automation.

And thanks to the decision to not allow MIDI to be routed to VST effects that support MIDI-input, there is no way to work around that particular ACID issue.

I can see that the vast majority of your issues with ACID 5, is with the MIDI functionality, or lack thereof.

I wouldn't even describe that as 'MIDI functionality' (the main features that exist in note editors and MIDI menu tasks in real sequencers).

I can see if you relied on ACID Pro 5, to be your primary MIDI workstation, there are certainly many area's that could use improvement/streamlining.
Hopefully, there will be attention given to this area, in the next version. Other than an odd basic
MIDI track here and there, I do most of my MIDI sequencing, in either SONAR or Project 5. The softsynth handling, recording and editing is just so much more fluid and advanced. I would certainly
never recommend ACID Pro 5, as a primary MIDI sequencer, except for the most basic tasks. When working in ACID, I spend more than 80%, of my time working with audio loops, 15% on audio tracks, and probably less than 5%, if that, on actual MIDI tasks. In fact, most of my ACID projects, before I import or rewire them to SONAR or Project 5, have no MIDI, at all.

Another way to get real MIDI functionality (and many other functions) into ACID PRO 5 is to load energyXT inside it as a VSTi, as the energyXT sequencer can sync to the ACID transport. However, as ACID is so feature limited, a disproportionately high number of tasks end up being carried out in energyXT, in which case energyXT may as well be used in standalone form.

Personally, I haven't posted in the ACID forum in quite a while.

[billybk1]

There are inserts available for the VSTi channels in the mixer (not 'VSTi MIDI tracks'), but they are not automatable. This is not by design, it is by lack of implementation.

I don't think I follow you cold c. You say there are, inserts available for the VSTi channels, are you talking about fx inserts or routable busing? When I add a VSTi and create a Softsynth Bus, in the mixer, the options I have are to route to the Master bus or any fx buses I may have added to the project, via the device icon, at the upper left. It will change to the lettered Bus, as selected. Insert Assignable FX can only be routed to the Master bus or to any additional buses. Any track bus parameter's (volume, pan & FX plugin parameters) are fully automatable. You can press the B keyboard shortcut to view the Bus Pane. You may have to drag the splitter bar up from the bottom of the Track View, to initially see it. Here you can add track, pan & FX envelopes to the Master Bus and any added Buses, SoftSynth Buses and/or Insert Assignable FX Buses. Right click on the bus track header and select an envelope type, from the pop-up menu. If you are talking about actual MIDI data being automatable via envelope node mixing, then yes, it is not implemented, in ACID Pro 5,

The busses are not fully automatable either, the effects parameters can't be automated, this is because ACID doesn't have anything like full automation.

Hmmmm.....I guess the way we need to automate is different then. All I need to do is use the keyboard shortcut B or select from the View|Show Bus Tracks top menu and then right click, on a Bus Track and from the pop-up menu select the appropriate parameter envelope(track volume,pan or FX parameter) that I want to automate. Then I go to the timeline, on the adjoining track and start creating envelope nodes to move(automate) as desired. Any FX that I added to the Softsynth Bus can be automated from the Bus Track, as well.

FWIW, 2 of the more invaluable new features, of ACID Pro 5, I use in every project nowadays, Folder Tracks and Bus to Bus routing.

I use the Folder Tracks to organize my project. I'll create a Drums Folder track, Percussion Folder track, Rhythm Guitar Folder track, Bass Folder track, Keys Folder track, Lead Vocal Folder track, Background Vocals Folder Track, etc...or whatever is needed for that particular project. You can even create Folder tracks inside of Folder tracks, as many times as you want. What was once an 80+ track unwieldy mess, can now be condensed down to a handful of folder tracks and individually expanded, contracted, muted or solo as needed.

I then route these Folder tracks to newly created Bus tracks with similar names, Drums, Percussion, Bass, etc. Now I can do convenient Stem Mixing using the Bus Volume faders and with the convenient Bus to Bus routing feature, I can route these Mix Buses to FX Buses and even route those buses to even more buses and on and on and on. You can have up to 26 total buses.

In Rewire mode you can then send these Bus tracks right into your preferred host.


Best regards,


Billy Buck

[cold c]

There are inserts available for the VSTi channels in the mixer (not 'VSTi MIDI tracks'), but they are not automatable. This is not by design, it is by lack of implementation.

I don't think I follow you cold c. You say there are, inserts available for the VSTi channels, are you talking about fx inserts or routable busing?

Inserts, 'insert effects', like the normal definition of insert effects, I found them now, as you say under BUS TRACKS.

When I add a VSTi and create a Softsynth Bus, in the mixer, the options I have are to route to the Master bus or any fx buses I may have added to the project, via the device icon, at the upper left. It will change to the lettered Bus, as selected. Insert Assignable FX can only be routed to the Master bus or to any additional buses. Any track bus parameter's (volume, pan & FX plugin parameters) are fully automatable. You can press the B keyboard shortcut to view the Bus Pane. You may have to drag the splitter bar up from the bottom of the Track View, to initially see it.

Thanks for that info, I didn't see this even though I think I tried all the options in the menu, it is probably because the instrument tracks appear at the bottom and are not visible without scrolling, unfortunately this brings with it more problems. For example viewing the instrument and insert automation with the MIDI data as one and moving it around as such.

The busses are not fully automatable either, the effects parameters can't be automated, this is because ACID doesn't have anything like full automation.

Hmmmm.....I guess the way we need to automate is different then.

No you are right, that feature is there, I missed it.

So in summary, the actual 'automation' issues are:

-No recording automation via GUI mouse movements.
-No ability to input automation via a remote device or control surface.
-VSTi and insert automation can't be viewed next to the corresponding MIDI track data.
-VSTi and insert automation can't be copied/pasted/moved WITH the corresponding MIDI track data.
-All automation envelopes for a channel are only visible on one track regardless of how many there are.
-No way to automate a non-instrument VST plugin (effect) with MIDI data.
EDIT:
-And of course the fact that the VSTi automation tracks are listed under 'bus tracks' for some reason

And I just noticed another issue related to moving the left and right locators while the song is playing, but that is a separate issue.

[Mykon]

I have been using Acid since version 2.0
It does have assignable FX for each track, though many people miss it at first (I did.)

I have started using Live and Cubase more often, due to the lack of automation features in Acid. The lack of new features in a new versions seems to be plaguing most DAWs recently. Acid semms to be simply adding features other DAWs have had made standards of...

Sony still has a chance to win me back, if they can fix the issues. Does anybody else get choppy audio when moving the view left to right? I've had that problem from version 4, across multiple computers. No way I'm giving up latency when other DAWs don't have the same problem...

-Mykon

[cold c]

Does anybody else get choppy audio when moving the view left to right? I've had that problem from version 4, across multiple computers.

No, but I often get 'choppy audio' in ACID PRO 5 when I zoom the main arrange window in and out (EDIT: when there are more than a few tracks, it seems to have improved in that area though).

[Mykon]

Yes, I get that problem also. It's annoying and should have been fixed with an update...

[cold c]

I just tried again and now I don't get those pops/clicks on zooming, it's annoying when they are inconsistent.