General Creamware questions

[Frippertronix]

I'm a little confused now, so can someone clarify: is XTC mode required to integrate anything the Scope card does with any other software (in my case it would be Tracktion 2)? Or is XTC needed only if you want to use a different card for I/O?

In other words, is there a native sequencer included with the Creamware cards and you either have to use that for everything or you have to cross your fingers and hope XTC works with your other hosts?

[aMUSEd]

XTC works fine with Tracktion 2 - that's what I use and it and Energy XT are the best sequencers for Scope. XTC mode just enables the Scope synths and effects to function as VSTs basically but still using DSP instead of CPU. Because of that there is some latency, as there would be with any DSP card, but if you are not planning to use very CPU greedy synths as well you can shave ASIO down to 1ms so it's minimal. There are a few Scope synths that are not "officialy" suppported under XTC mode but there are workarounds for that (posted above).

One point to note - freeze does not work with synths in XTC mode - this is because they can't be forced to run faster than realtime speed - not that you would need it as they don't use the CPU anyway. You just do a realtime render to audio (best quality anyway).

However you don't need XTC mode to integrate Scope into any sequencing environment. All I do is setup my basic ins/outs so that the audio from each Scope synth comes into Tracktion on it's own track - just as you would if you had a bunch of external hardware synths - you get no latency at all this way. Basically you're using Tracktion as a multitrack recorder and it works very well that way. I'm not sure if Tracktion can do midi outs but Energy XT can so sometimes I create a midi track in that and feed that into a Scope synth then record it - this way I have an editable version to play with rather than just audio.

If you did want to record stuff inside Scope and skip using ASIO/sequencers altogether there is an 8 track recording app that can be bought as an optional extra - it's called VDAT and is basically a virtual version of a DAT tape - it probably provides the best quality recording available for Scope as it's all inside the system and doesn't need ASIO or DX to function - I ended up getting this as it has the advantage that you can plug a VDAT in at any point in the signal chain and thus record with and without effects etc - you can have several VDATs within a project so it adds great flexibility. VDAT is 199 euro's but when you register Scope you get a bonus half price offer to spend in their shop (you can also register more than once - unofficially )

[Frippertronix]

aMUSEd, thanks for the detailed reply. That's encouraging. It seems like there is a long list of great things about Creamware, but then there are some decidedly disgruntled users so it's a little hard to anticipate what I might encounter, but it's great to hear from another T2 ( it! BTW) user so that kind of pins things down better.

As long as it will work like a VST filter in T2 and do a similar thing to the UAD-1, I'm inlined to go for Creamware since their mid level card is $250 cheaper and includes a nice synth.

Can you tell me about your registartion experiences and if you ever had to try to contact CW for support?

[aMUSEd]

Registration is pretty straightforward. It's like challenge response but with each plugin being locked to your card's ID rather than your whole PC so once you have a key it won't change if your system does (which means if Creamware did go down you're sorted as long as you have backed it up). Also if you moved the card to a new PC you could also move the plugins. Sometimes their server is a bit erratic.

I haven't needed support but I know from other's that this can be a weakness - the best way to get support is through the forums at Planet Z - one of their support people (Ralph) seems to be more responsive and hangs there. I'd suggest asking some questions there and reading through the threads before buying - there are some very experienced users there, many of whom are professionals too. There are also second hand cards on sale there from time to time (they have a Market place like KVR).

[aMUSEd]

As long as it will work like a VST filter in T2 and do a similar thing to the UAD-1, I'm inlined to go for Creamware since their mid level card is $250 cheaper and includes a nice synth.

Just to be clear, if you want to use it that way it means using XTC mode. You will have some latency if you do that and it's nowhere near as flexible as using Scope standard mode which enables you to route anything anywhere virtually and basically turns your whole PC into the synth/effects box and you route everything in and out of your sequencer as if you were working with hardware. That is the approach I use the most as it works the best for me and although the learning curve is a bit steeper if I can do it anyone can.

[coldmachine]

Fripp, a lot of the Creamware dissers are non owners so can't really comment honestly or objectively. There are also people who dont/ wont accept that thier SB card and a VSTi crack dont sound anywhere near the same quality. The routing is spectacular and the synths are stellar the John Bowen stuff standing out especially Ambient and Solaris as are most CW stuff ( the vocoder is the best on the planet bar none hard or soft and the Modular with Adern is great, the real ace up its sleve being the waldorf ocillators.). They can be choosy as regards mobos but all the info is on Planet Z. The only downside is price I suppose. I run a dedicated Red Sub system with 45 dsps and another with 30. Both are dedicated machines and I have every piece of CW software installed as a special deal, all running perfect.
Routing through Cubase etc is a breeze and routing Cubase etc through the CW mixers and master Plugs is a breeze. I normally use 6 adat plugs for master recording of individual tracks and my default project loads all this and i just use the big remote to contol all 6 virtual machines.
Creamware is a professional solution and delivers the goods. I use mine every day to make a very nice living and could never work without them.
If they didn't work that well I'd dump them. Anyone who says the dont sound spectacular is perfectly at liberty to kiss my bollocks.

[coldmachine]

Here's something i was asked to write a while back elsewhere some info may be out of date but it mostly still applies........

I have been reading the posts here for a long time now.Ive only recently posted as I get little time.The purpose of this post is to offer my view of the Creamware platform as a music and sound production system.I hope this of interest to at least some of you and maybe restore the faith of a few.
Firstly who am I?If you Club or listen to "serious" dance music you will have heard my name and music.You will also have heard Remixes of mine.I have also been a programmer for "mainstream" artists.The only non commercial project I have been engaged in recently is creating a sound bank for John Bowen's fantastic Ambient synth,I will be repeating this for DarkStar too( these will become available to you all soon and have already been used in a number of releases).John has heard a small sample of the results i obtain from the platform and of my use of his synths and was very enthusiastic.This formed the basis of a future release which has already been "White labeled",and went down very well.As well as all my outboard I use 2 specially commissioned CW based systems one with 30 DSP and one with 45.I think I am more than qualified to give a professional view/appraisal of the Scope/Pulsar system or SFP as it is now called.Any views or comments I give are as a result of my own experience and much of what I say is a reflection of the fact that my computers are fully custom built and configured ,never have or will have any non music App and are not connected to the net.
I chose to have a creamware system as a result of seeing one in action during a remix job.I was amazed at the routing possibilities and the seamless integration with the ADAT machines I and many others use.The synths I felt were good,but the Modular stood out.I had used Reactor extensively(including 3rd party instruments)and felt that it had a fantastic list of modules and possibilities (better than CW Modular) but in use it sounded thin and weedy infact like a toy.The CW modular is able to compete with the only other serious modular contender.. the Nord.I later discovered John Bowens machines ( Ambient in particular),they are fully superior to ANY softsynths available.His Prophet shows up the short cuts taken with the NI Pro-52,which leads me to my next point...ALGORITHMS
Its been posted that this or that card are more powerful than the Sharc chips in terms of Mhz and Mflops,(my Sony desk is Sharc powered incidentally) and this is true.Its also argued that you need loads of DSP,that's also true ,but ive got loads so that point doesn't concern me.The CW boards are less powerful than some but where they totally out perform the opposition is the QUALITY of their ALGORITHMS.Give me sonic quality over unsupported Mhz any day.As an example a "friend" purchased an Oaysis based system and returned it in less than a week as he thought he was getting a similar thing to Scope.He came away with a Scope and now has added 2 SRB,even replacing 1 of his 2 ADATS with VDAT(which he swears by).I personally used 3 Akai 6000s I now have 1,the other two(replaced in the studio with the far superior STS5000 despite the odd gremlin) were sold and subsidised my SRBs.I did the same with my fully expanded Nord.When I get time to use VDAT one of my ADATs will go the same way.Now you can see the huge cost of my CW systems is not as high as you may have first assumed.When Cubase SX gives me the audio engine of Nuendo alongside Cubase sequencing and CW quality converters the smaller of our two Pro-Tools systems will be sold(if you want to complain about bugs.....PT is no better)The FX are not really highend although a couple of 3rd party verbs are cool and MasterVerb pro is pretty good.The Matering plugs Psy-Q and Optimaster get used all the time now and are first rate(and compare well with outboard TC).I must single out the Vocodiser for special mention,I have used both EMS and Senhieser vocoders and the Vocodiser is by far the best I have ever used.It is fantastic for vox,pads and loop/phrase/drum treatment.
Another criticism of the CW system is that it is too complicated.To anyone with REAL experience in a REAL studio, it is laid out well and is very simple and easy to master as it conforms to most studio conventions.This makes the mixers a pleasure to use.I do sympathise with those who do find it difficult.Some of the problems that even the pulsar "gurus" and "geeks" still seem have would not arise if there was a better understanding of studio workings.The traffic is 2 way though insofar as a non studio experienced CW owner would find the concepts in a studio easier to master than a purely VST guy.
I have taken the time to post here as I feel many people are worried about the future of the platform.I feel it is pretty secure.I've also been shown a few "works in progress" for the platform that are exiting.I could name a few other "known" players who use CW products(see this months Future Music article on Black Dog).Posters have also said that "Real Pros" dont visit these sites.WRONG.On here you tend NOT to get the tpypical VSTi site post of "I need a freeware Nord Lead emulator for my soundblaster" answered with " the Dish xxx for Reactor is a perfect recreation but costs a staggering $25" or "I just sold my Pro Tools rig and my ADAT and my racks of Rolands and Waldorfs and replaced it all with FruityLoops and its much better,I've just finished an album on it"Talk about mass delusion by some or blatant bullshit by others.There are pro only sites that negate that problem.I have to laugh sometimes(even on here) when people claim to be "in the game" when its so obvious they're not,thats a different point though.
The CW system is a pro solution and as such deseves to be housed in a pro level computer.Most of the problems i have seen on here are due to bad configuration or being housed in multi-purpose machines.Shure the cards can be choosy but its all well documented.Digidesign is the same.The people I work with who have CW systems or single cards all have single purpose DAWs.A computer is NOT a DAW just because you tag on some music Software or god forbid,a bloody SB card.Ive even noticed a few questions which by thier nature indicate that cracked software is being used.Please dont jump on me if you think thats just affluent arrogance,im just giving a view from where i stand,which is with a hugely powerful,amazing sounding and almost flawless system.Any positive statements or opinions concerning instruments or plugs are as a result of more than a few releases/remixes from which I earn a nice living.Hope this provides food for thought and maybe a bit of reasurance for some.If anyone is interested I may be able to chip in a post relating to CW use in a real setting every couple of weeks.

PS Why use LSD when you can have DSP instesd

[grandaddy]

I sold my creamware system a few weeks ago and replaced it with rme - I'm not convinced at the moment that I did the right thing.

I mainly sold my system at creamwares insistance at investing all their time and efforts in creating dodo's (noah and the latest range of hardware synths) and totally ignoring current markets.

Their idiosyncratic vision obviously helped create their fantastic range of cards, but ultimately it will break them as a company.

[diverdee]

In short creamware cards are excellent, but you have to be willing to pay a deal of money for third party fx & synths (for real quality) & a shit load on extra dsp's to be able to really use them with any polyphony etc.
Persoanlly I think that their price/power ratio is wrong - they need to bring down te prices &/or update the chips.
One card with 6 dsp is going nowhere you need at least 12 dsp to really start feeling it, & that will soon run out of horsepower.

[Frippertronix]

In short creamware cards are excellent, but you have to be willing to pay a deal of money for third party fx & synths (for real quality) & a shit load on extra dsp's to be able to really use them with any polyphony etc.
Persoanlly I think that their price/power ratio is wrong - they need to bring down te prices &/or update the chips.
One card with 6 dsp is going nowhere you need at least 12 dsp to really start feeling it, & that will soon run out of horsepower.

I really appreciate the detailed input from everyone. Unfortunately the water is still as muddy as it was (just a different color of mud, really ).

I can't really afford one of the 14 or 15 chip ones, unless I forego a PC upgrade for some time (I need one of those, too) and it sounds like 6 chips will barely get me started. I'd be getting this about 65% for effects (mostly the common mixing and mastering types) and 35% for synth as I already have two analogs I'm pretty happy with, but it sounds like the stock effects are good but not great, which leads me back to the mid level UAD card which has better effects but no synth and is $250 more expensive.

Soooo.....I really have no idea what to do.

I appreciate the input, though, and will definitely check out the website that was mentioned.

Thanks again,
Dave

[aMUSEd]

6 DSP's is fine of you want to use the synths that ship with the card (Minimax and Vectron and the Modular) and for the effects. It's not enough if you want to use some of the third party monsters like Solaris or Flexor though or get one of the lush third party reverbs like the Timeworks ones (unless you just stick to 2-3 voices). I have Solaris and Flexor and manage 3-8 voices depending on the patch with my 9 DSP's but stuff like Minimax can manage more.

I have to say though that if I was wanting mainly effects I too would go for the UAD or Powercore (their new algorithmic reverbs look amazing) - I went for Creamware for the synths, particularly the Modular, and for the overall sound quality of the system as a soundcard (which is up there with RME).

[JonnySun 2.0]

By the way, XTC seems to not get along with some hosts, but you can in fact get any Creamware device to work in XTC mode (including Mod III patches, 3rd party plugins, etc. even though Creamware says this is not possible/supported). You just have to do a simple little trick and any plugin should work fine. (copy one of the existing effect xtc DLL files, and rename it to the same name as the CW plugin you wish to use in XTC mode, and it should work!)

I can't understand why they don't support it although it seems very simple to make a workaround. Strange

[JonnySun 2.0]

In short creamware cards are excellent, but you have to be willing to pay a deal of money for third party fx & synths (for real quality) & a shit load on extra dsp's to be able to really use them with any polyphony etc.
Persoanlly I think that their price/power ratio is wrong - they need to bring down te prices &/or update the chips.
One card with 6 dsp is going nowhere you need at least 12 dsp to really start feeling it, & that will soon run out of horsepower.

Agree. I would prefer lowering the prices for the dsp-components/cards, not adding a few plugs and sell them as super big bundles with 6 DSP-cards together

[brianbrian]

Just some news from CWA, found on the PlanetZ forum:

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... orum=10&12

So apparently, CWA have sold a good amount of those AWB boxes, which is great news! Currently, I beleive the SHARC chips on the CW cards run @ 60Mhz, but CWA apparently is working on recompiling the Scope software to run on these new SHARC chips, which run @ 200Mhz. I'm sure the new CW cards won't be out for a while, but they should be much faster.

More news from PlanetZ: Warp69 (who made the P100/A100/etc reverbs, and has worked on the upcoming native CSR) has finished a Klark Teknik DN780 emulation. If you don't know, this is another early digital reverb, with a very nice warm character (roughly in the same league as the AMS RMX16).

[Frippertronix]

6 DSP's is fine of you want to use the synths that ship with the card (Minimax and Vectron and the Modular) and for the effects. It's not enough if you want to use some of the third party monsters like Solaris or Flexor though or get one of the lush third party reverbs like the Timeworks ones (unless you just stick to 2-3 voices). I have Solaris and Flexor and manage 3-8 voices depending on the patch with my 9 DSP's but stuff like Minimax can manage more.

I have to say though that if I was wanting mainly effects I too would go for the UAD or Powercore (their new algorithmic reverbs look amazing) - I went for Creamware for the synths, particularly the Modular, and for the overall sound quality of the system as a soundcard (which is up there with RME).

But if the stock synths can run on six chips and sound good, would you say the Mix 'N' Master effects (if you've heard them) are comparable to things from the likes of Kjaerhus and Voxengo (two of the ones I currently use)?

I'm willing to take something of a hit in terms of the effects not being totally top of the line in exchange for the synths and the lower price, but I need solid mixing and mastering effects that would still work in a professional setting, even if they aren't "the best". I'm also willing to spend more later for some of the third party effects. Are any of those on par with UAD-1's best effects?

Also, has anyone compared MasterVerb Pro to Dreamverb?