where next with software instruments?

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Lunatique wrote:I don't think it's cool to just outright dismiss the talent and hard work of traditional musicians either like you have. Why must the world be black and white to you? I'd think at your age you'd have seen through all that?
Its not the world, its music, which is far more important. For me it either works or it doesn't. Kylie Minogue and Yo Yo Ma are equal in my eyes. I would laoe to be a pretentious git and say that I could appreciate one over the other but the simple fact is that neither do anything at all for me. its just the way it is, its not something over which I have any control [much like my mouth].
Instead of debating about whether acoustic instruments are superior to synths, we should maybe make efforts to either learn to perform a synth at the same level or find examples of those who could. We could also figure out how we can map relevant parameters to controllers in an intuitive manner that will aid us in expressing ourselves with synths.
Its interesting, isn't it, that we feel we have to go to these lengths, when we can accept it all at face value when it applies to something like a cello or mouth-organ. To me each is equally evident.
I completely understand your point about the level of subtlety and expression that automation on a sequencer gives you--we all use those features on our own music so we've all benefited from it. But I guess this particular point tends to evolve into point #2--composition vs. performance (and this is why the discussion gets muddy because we're mixing discussion points).
I don't see why. If we can do it one way, we can sure as hell do it the other. i.e. If it can be performed by a person in front of an instrument, it can be captured and reused by a sequencer. It really comes down to spirituality - you want so desperately to believe that a human being has some special worth that no machine can possibly do justice to, but I am perfectly at ease with the notion that we are just worthless bags of meat, so I see no reason that a computer can't out-do us easily.

At the end of the day, all I care about is results. The process is only a means to an end. I suppose that because I am making exactly the music I want to make, I am happy as a pig in shit with where everything as it is today. What I really cannot see is how that is not largely true for anyone wanting to make any kind of music imaginable. "Largely" means I can absolutely see room for changes/improvement but the next big thing? Its just not going to happen.
NOVAkILL : Legion GO, AMD Z1x, 16GB RAM, Win11 | Audient EVO 8 | Lumi Keys | Studio Pro 8
Korg Odyssey, bx-oberhausen, Proxima, PolyMax, GR8, JP6K, Union, Atomika,
Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron

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BONES wrote: It really comes down to spirituality - you want so desperately to believe that a human being has some special worth that no machine can possibly do justice to, but I am perfectly at ease with the notion that we are just worthless bags of meat, so I see no reason that a computer can't out-do us easily.
this is kind of where your argument turns into shit, because, its no longer wat ur tlakign about, now yorue trying to compare computers to poeple rather than synths to acoustic instruments.

this is a bunch of shit, daammmn fool, im so sick of poepel saying taht its computers that make electronic music, fool, wat the f**k are you talking about, computers can never outdo poeople, and they never have. people make music using the computers, they are nothing more than tools., an acoustic instumrent is no more "human" than is a synth. its jsut the form in which its used is different, because rather than creating sounds thorugh physics, we create sounds thorugh circuitry.

so yea, wat the f**k man, thats such a bunch of shit lol, i cant stress that enough, computers dont make electronic music, people do.

creativity can never truly be programmed into a system, since there is no logical path one can define which makes creativity happen. people dont even understand how creativity works in teh first place, wat woudl make you think they could program it into a machine.

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BONES wrote:At the end of the day, all I care about is results. The process is only a means to an end. I suppose that because I am making exactly the music I want to make,...
Which was the point of my previous reply. If you were only speaking for yourself it would be one thing, but you're trying to apply your philosophy with broad strokes without regard to the particulars. And your results, while fine for you, are not likely to be the results that everyone is or should be seeking. For some, no "advancements" in software instruments or control of them will achieve the desired musical goals. It really is all about the playing.
We escape the trap of our own subjectivity by
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey

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Audio Gnostic wrote:
BONES wrote: It really comes down to spirituality - you want so desperately to believe that a human being has some special worth that no machine can possibly do justice to, but I am perfectly at ease with the notion that we are just worthless bags of meat, so I see no reason that a computer can't out-do us easily.
this is kind of where your argument turns into shit, because, its no longer wat ur tlakign about, now yorue trying to compare computers to poeple rather than synths to acoustic instruments.

this is a bunch of shit, daammmn fool, im so sick of poepel saying taht its computers that make electronic music, fool, wat the f**k are you talking about, computers can never outdo poeople, and they never have. people make music using the computers, they are nothing more than tools., an acoustic instumrent is no more "human" than is a synth. its jsut the form in which its used is different, because rather than creating sounds thorugh physics, we create sounds thorugh circuitry.

so yea, wat the f**k man, thats such a bunch of shit lol, i cant stress that enough, computers dont make electronic music, people do.

creativity can never truly be programmed into a system, since there is no logical path one can define which makes creativity happen. people dont even understand how creativity works in teh first place, wat woudl make you think they could program it into a machine.
Could be that you missed the point entirely...Just a thought. The underlining context was that people can use computers to do things that people are simply not capable of doing without them. Hence, they can "out-do" us.

But, if you enjoy burning straw, go right ahead.

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BONES wrote: At the end of the day, all I care about is results. The process is only a means to an end. I suppose that because I am making exactly the music I want to make, I am happy as a pig in shit with where everything as it is today. What I really cannot see is how that is not largely true for anyone wanting to make any kind of music imaginable. "Largely" means I can absolutely see room for changes/improvement but the next big thing? Its just not going to happen.
While I agree wholeheartedly that the end result is the most important, you and I (and many others) diverge on one single point, and that is you do not derive joy from playing/practicing/mastering an instrument, and you see yourself as an entertainer, not a musician or composer--in fact you see doing creative and production work as a chore that's a necessary evil so you can go on stage and perform. I guess in a way your mentality is a lot like the EBM version of Madonna--she just wants to entertain--she's not a composer or a musician, yet she has carved out a name for herself and in music history, regardless of what "real" musicians think of her.

In the end it's all just different strokes for different folks, isn't it?

I'm certainly grateful that today I can compose for a virtual symphony with sample libraries and a sequencer--that was a dream when I was younger and I had no idea that in merely a decade or so it has now become a common reality. And armed with the killer softsynths, effects, audio editors...etc, one could in fact create just about anything--or at least close enough with a few regrets here and there (for example, I have yet to see a really good harmonica library that's not based on recorded phrases--that's why I acutally bought some to learn to play them myself). But for purely electronic music, we have pretty much all we need at this point (until new styles emerge that would require new tools or methods). Whether there's room for the next big thing--that all depends on if you feel something is missing. In your case, no. For some of us, definitely.

A side-note--I actually had just written a blog entry prior to this discussion, about how the synthesizer is the most expressive instrument of all--we just need to learn to utilize them in such a way to fulfill its true potential (but of course I was talking about real-time control, not automation). The fact is, I f**king love my synths, and they fascinate me more than any high-end orchestral library. My goal as a musician has always been to combine and hybridize various styles--taking what I love about each and blend them together into something uniquely my own.

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Audio Gnostic wrote:computers can never outdo poeople, and they never have
Let us never be certain, when using the word NEVER.
If we do ever see a quantum computer, your statement above might change.

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eduardo_b wrote: It really is all about the playing.
Nah, I think at the end of the day, it is all about the results...results each person decides to live with at any given time. Not too many "traditional musician" really reaches their desired musical goals no matter how much time they practice perfecting their craft either. No matter how much I practice the trumpet, I will never reach the playing ability of Leroy Jones...

http://www.satchmo.com/leroyjones/

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mmmmm i can alwasy trust my trusty potatoes

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Trusty wrote:
eduardo_b wrote: It really is all about the playing.
Nah, I think at the end of the day, it is all about the results...results each person decides to live with at any given time. Not too many "traditional musician" really reaches their desired musical goals no matter how much time they practice perfecting their craft either. No matter how much I practice the trumpet, I will never reach the playing ability of Leroy Jones...

http://www.satchmo.com/leroyjones/
Some people just want answers, without doing the internal work that is required to acquire the answer. These types get by on cleverness. However, one who practices this can become stupid over time. (A stupid person absorbs only cleverness, and reflects stupidity.)

This is all pretty similar to the processes that go on inside of the musician who plays, as opposed to being more of a passive participant. FYI: this is especially true in the child development arena.

Personally, I couldn't agree with _b more: It's all about the notes you play and the way you play them. ;)
I've got nothing to sell...am I on the right site?

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kuniklo wrote:
pdxindy wrote: And that difference is part of the reason for this thread in the first place. How to create modulations that control more complex interactions that more closely mimic natural systems.
I think natural systems are possibly a good source of inspiration for this kind of thing but I personally am not that interested in mimicking natural systems. Let cellos and cellists do what they do best and let's instead try to do something new.
What I mean by natural systems is not to suggest copying a cello, but the complexity of interaction inherent in natural systems.

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BONES wrote:I know a bloke who'd probably pay your daughter to do a show too, but she'd have to do it topless. Its a funny old world, ain't it?
Yes it is BONES and the fact you hang out with a NONCE does not come as much of a shock me, reverting to such pathetic attempts to raise any fury inside me will not work

My daughter has yet to express any interest in lyrics so far, i think She is focused on purely instrumental music for now, i can not predict or say in which direction She may go in the future although she really likes strumming my guitars but Her hands are far too small to fret anything so i have to fret notes while she strums (her current preference is one of many jackson guitars i own, EMG pickups, an Ibanez TS-808 Tube Screamer Overdrive Pedal & Boss NS-2 Noise Surpressor Pedal. These are then fed into one of my Marshall All-Valve Amp heads and 4x12" & 1x15" cabs and always goes for a Dunlop Ultex .60 Plectrum) - what can i say? the Girl has got good taste IMO ;)

I fail to see anything but alot of 'me/we/us' in all your posts so really the only person your convincing is yourself (oh and your little fanboy 'Trusty' - not your fault man)

Congratulations

You pick out one of the worst examples of whom i consider a good guitar player (i could not pick a worse example if i tried :lol: ). My 'hate' for the Edge is a big one: the guy hits one note and then lets a delay pedal do the rest - it amazes me why some consider the fool a decent guitarist

Trusty - EyeHateGod have been out making great music for years, song titles include 'My Name Is God (I Hate You), Preaching The Endtime Message, Jackass In The Will Of God and countless others. So they are already out :hihi: and nothing new but their a great band and you should check them out mate

Trusty: I do not Hate BONES and i do infact sometimes agree with him but on this particular topic i beg to differ, if we all did agree on everything all of the time then life would be boring - you muppet

On this topic BONES i am happy to agree to disagree with you because its very apparent nothing either of us say to one another is going to change our clashing points of view/opinions: So we are both wasting our time

Good luck for the future

Nekro/Dean

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For me, it's not only about the end results.
Say, in case I went to the same artist's show two nights, I don't want to hear the same backing tracks again. I want some variation in all elements of the music.
In case there's people enjoying Madonna's performance to be 1:1 each night, be it so. I'm just not one of them, so I want to see what all the musicians on stage are able to come up with.
It's that easy, really.

- Sascha
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

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BONES wrote:It really comes down to spirituality - you want so desperately to believe that a human being has some special worth that no machine can possibly do justice to, but I am perfectly at ease with the notion that we are just worthless bags of meat, so I see no reason that a computer can't out-do us easily.
just cause you are at ease with some notion does not make it an accurate representation of life. but of course there is no real talking to you because nothing exists to you but your own machine mind. that is your own spiritual poverty and it makes real conversation impossible and makes you say such things as everyone but you is an idiot.

such a dead, mechanical worldview inevitably will come to the conclusions you do. yet that does not mean there is not more than what you see. Music is more than a quantifiable series of notes.

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BONES wrote:It really comes down to spirituality - you want so desperately to believe that a human being has some special worth that no machine can possibly do justice to, but I am perfectly at ease with the notion that we are just worthless bags of meat, so I see no reason that a computer can't out-do us easily.
Dude...you are so wrong. I'm actually a meat and potatoes kinda guy.
Yea but I'm a sirlion steak and your just an f**king ground beef.
Dude if the Terminator movie comes true, I won't be on your side. Those machines can just eat your groundbeef ass.
:lol:

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Taking sides would be your first mistake. you wouldn't last 5 minutes. OTOH, I'd be there until the very end, jus tto make sure the machines do a good job.
Audio Gnostic wrote:computers can never outdo poeople, and they never have.
Actually, computers outdo people in literally millions of areas. Of course, there are still some things we do better for now, but that won't last.
Of course, you realise that you are agreeing with me, don't you?
eduardo_b wrote:If you were only speaking for yourself it would be one thing, but you're trying to apply your philosophy with broad strokes without regard to the particulars. And your results, while fine for you, are not likely to be the results that everyone is or should be seeking. For some, no "advancements" in software instruments or control of them will achieve the desired musical goals. It really is all about the playing.
What a load of cobblers! I don't use more than a fraction of it but that doesn't blind me to the potential. If only a virtuoso could appreciate a virtuoso performance, what would be the point. Your argument makes no sense.
Lunatique wrote:In the end it's all just different strokes for different folks, isn't it?
Sure but again, you don't have to be a thing in order to understand or appreciate it. there are some things that you probably shouldn't comment on if you haven't experienced them, like reviewing a synth you've never used, but its possible to have a valid opinion about something that you don't particularly like or admire, as long as you understand it.
I'm certainly grateful that today I can compose for a virtual symphony with sample libraries and a sequencer--that was a dream when I was younger and I had no idea that in merely a decade or so it has now become a common reality.
Clint Ruin, aka Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, aka Jim Thirwell, did it most convincingly on his 1985 album Nail. The Theme and Overture From Pigdom Come are amazing, from a time when samplers were mostly useless.
NEKRO.MACHINE wrote:I fail to see anything but alot of 'me/we/us' in all your posts
Don't you think it would be pretty arrogant of me to presume to speak for anyone else?
You pick out one of the worst examples of whom i consider a good guitar player (i could not pick a worse example if i tried :lol: ). My 'hate' for the Edge is a big one: the guy hits one note and then lets a delay pedal do the rest - it amazes me why some consider the fool a decent guitarist
See, how sad does that make you? The guy comes up with an instantly recognisable style in a world saturated with guitars, something that you'd think was nigh-on impossible, and all you can do is denigrate it/him because he was clever enough to do it simply. I'm not a U2 fan at all but I'd take his guitar style over 99% of the rest of the krap that's out there.
Trusty - EyeHateGod have been out making great music for years, song titles include 'My Name Is God (I Hate You), Preaching The Endtime Message, Jackass In The Will Of God and countless others. So they are already out :hihi: and nothing new but their a great band and you should check them out mate
Don't be daft, he was talking about our forthcoming album, titled I Hate God.
Sascha Franck wrote:For me, it's not only about the end results.
Say, in case I went to the same artist's show two nights, I don't want to hear the same backing tracks again. I want some variation in all elements of the music.
People say this a lot but seriously, when do you ever get that? Bands work really hard to ensure a certain consistency in their performances and they keep to what the crowd expects most of the time. That said, we have never played the same set twice in a row, possibly not ever at all [not consciously, anyway]. We even have slightly different versions of some songs so that if we play them two nights in a row, people who are into it should be able to appreciate the difference. That said, I've seen plenty of bands a dozen or more times and whilst songs may change over time, from night to night they always sound pretty much the same to me.
pdxindy wrote:... nothing exists to you but your own machine mind. that is your own spiritual poverty and it makes real conversation impossible and makes you say such things as everyone but you is an idiot.
I'm pretty open minded, I just call 'em as I see 'em. In fact, I find it interesting that so many of you are so touchy about this. Nowhere have I suggested that a virtuso cellist or horn player or anyone else is anything less than what anyone else would make of them, all I've suggested is that a synth player could easily rise to the same level with current tools. It seems that makes a lot of you really defensive, almost like you're afraid of electronic instruments. Really strange that you'd be hanging around a place like this with those attitudes.
Music is more than a quantifiable series of notes.
No, its not. That you have such a desperate need to believe otherwise is further proof of your own insecurity. its like cars - I am really into 'em in a big way [in case that is not already obvious] but I have little or no interest in the kinds of cars most people would normally associate with a car nut. I am happy to drive an Astra because it is a fantastic car. The fact that there are hundreds of much better cars out there is irrelevant to me because I know for a fact that I wouldn't enjoy driving any of them any more than I enjoy my Astra. I don't need to own the best or drive the best or be the best to feel secure about my place within the pantheon of life. I can get up in front of 10 people or 10,000 people and feel perfectly confident that I can pull it off, be it work or music. You just need to be at ease with who you are and understand that you have nothing to prove to anyone but yourself. Its not rocket science.
NOVAkILL : Legion GO, AMD Z1x, 16GB RAM, Win11 | Audient EVO 8 | Lumi Keys | Studio Pro 8
Korg Odyssey, bx-oberhausen, Proxima, PolyMax, GR8, JP6K, Union, Atomika,
Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron

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