Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

Hi-

Cakewalk Rep here. I come in peace and am willing to answer some questions if people have it. A few things I wanted to address.

Payment/Ownership: When you buy upfront, you own the product outright. This is the same model we have today. With this release we are introducing a bunch of new features. that are available today. What's different is that for the next 12 months you'll also get additional new features, updates, fixes, content, and video tutorials. When we talk about features, we aren't talking about little featurettes but major stuff. In essence for this year you are getting what would have been X4 and X5.

What's also new is monthly payments. We realize that $500 or even $100 can be a lot of money. This is one reason why people pirate software. We'd like to make it more affordable to get into the product. We also don't want to product to vanish when they stop paying for it so we thought 12 months was a fair amount of time. After 12 months, you own the product and ALL the features and updates you received. You can continue paying monthly or opt out. It's up to you.

Why we think this model is good for consumers and Cakewalk: Every customer and potential customer has the right to choose if they want to purchase SONAR. The majority of feedback we have received has been good, and we did a lot of research, focus groups, and surveys. This was well thought out. The fact of the matter is you will never please 100% of the people. This is a fact.

We think this model is good for both the consumer and Cakewalk. There is no doubt that we have to prove this model works. The burden is on us to make this model work. With this release, we have introduced a bunch of cool features and we have some very cool stuff coming soon. I think the value of this update is really amazing considering you are getting what would have been X4 and also X5. So over the course of the next year, it's imperative that we deliver on this promise and that we make our customers happy. Otherwise, at the end of a year, we will have trouble getting customers to renew or buy another 12 months upfront. But if we blow people away and give customers amazing value every month, then we have done our job and we should expect happy customers and a healthy business. We can all sit here and debate what we think will happen but really at the end of the day, our actions will speak the loudest. I feel very confident that we'll deliver more value than any other DAW on the market.

The other reason why this is good is that Cakewalk can focus on a handful of features at a time. And there's not time crunch or pressure to release them on a certain date, we'll release them when they are ready. This is going to make for a better products. We'll also be issuing many more fixes and improvements to the product which will make the experience better. This will also make us way more responsive. We are also hiring (http://www.cakewalk.com/Careers), and will be adding a lot more resources to support this new model.

At the end of the 12 months, you can decide for yourself if you thought you got value out of the investment. And if you decide you want to sit it out right now, that's fine too. You can see the progress from the sidelines and decide later if you want to upgrade or buy. Or if you love the DAW you have now, you can be content and happy, and make music It's up to you.

Support: We offer 12 months of support as part of the membership. Honestly, that's much better than most of are other DAW competitors. I think people need to do a little research. Most competitors offer limited time support and then you have to pay. And depending on the issue, if you call after a year, I don't think we'll be hanging up on you.

I'd be happy to try and answer other people's questions. The best way to find out about SONAR X3 and Cakewalk over the past year or so is to ask people who own the product. There are a few people on this thread that aren't customers, and that just hate on us for whatever reason (I even tried to reach out to some of them to understand their issues). SONAR X3 was a great release. It was the most popular release of the X series and even in the last survey, we got a 95%+ satisfaction rating from customers, which was great. Is their room for improvement? Of course there is and that goes for any product. And that's why we think this new membership model is a step in the right direction. It's a win-win for customers and Cakewalk.

Thanks, for reading.

why, when you've already had people's money (essentially for renting), do you penalise those who don't run the 12-month course ??

if i pay for 7 months, but then don't pay for another 5, why do you remove all the bug-fixes etc and send me back to the previous update ?? you've had 7 months of money from me. more than that, if i ever want to get any further updates, i have to start all over again

nope !! your 12-months is not "fair"

if i pay for 6 months, during which time you fix a large bug that affected me, do you really then take that fix from me ??

What you are suggesting is we just let people buy the product for one month or a few months and own everything. What we are saying is that you can own this product after 12 months and pay monthly. I don't think it would be fair to let people just opt in for a few months and own the product. Developing products costs money so obviously we need to charge for it. What we are doing is the same exact thing as every other DAW out there. The only big difference is that you can pay for it over 12 months and also you'll get more than just fixes and updates after your initial purchase.

[whyterabbyt]

bug-fixes are clearly different. if they suddenly fix some bug that's been plaguing users for years, halfway through your rental cycle, are you really suggesting it is "fair" that that be removed when you stop coughing up your monthly rent ??

The first 12 months 'buy' the product. After that, you've got whichever version was most recent, including bugfixes.

If you dont 'buy' then why would you be entitled to keep (a) the version available on the day you got it AND (b) all the updates since? I kinda think that given that you didnt actually 'buy' it outright, just getting (a) is kinda sufficient.

If you're worried about getting bugfixes, pay a 1-year sub, the equivalent of paying for any other product, pay less than you would monthly for 12 months, get all the fixes and 12 months of new features.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Hi-

Cakewalk Rep here. I come in peace and am willing to answer some questions if people have it. A few things I wanted to address.

Payment/Ownership: When you buy upfront, you own the product outright. This is the same model we have today. With this release we are introducing a bunch of new features. that are available today. What's different is that for the next 12 months you'll also get additional new features, updates, fixes, content, and video tutorials. When we talk about features, we aren't talking about little featurettes but major stuff. In essence for this year you are getting what would have been X4 and X5.

What's also new is monthly payments. We realize that $500 or even $100 can be a lot of money. This is one reason why people pirate software. We'd like to make it more affordable to get into the product. We also don't want to product to vanish when they stop paying for it so we thought 12 months was a fair amount of time. After 12 months, you own the product and ALL the features and updates you received. You can continue paying monthly or opt out. It's up to you.

Why we think this model is good for consumers and Cakewalk: Every customer and potential customer has the right to choose if they want to purchase SONAR. The majority of feedback we have received has been good, and we did a lot of research, focus groups, and surveys. This was well thought out. The fact of the matter is you will never please 100% of the people. This is a fact.

We think this model is good for both the consumer and Cakewalk. There is no doubt that we have to prove this model works. The burden is on us to make this model work. With this release, we have introduced a bunch of cool features and we have some very cool stuff coming soon. I think the value of this update is really amazing considering you are getting what would have been X4 and also X5. So over the course of the next year, it's imperative that we deliver on this promise and that we make our customers happy. Otherwise, at the end of a year, we will have trouble getting customers to renew or buy another 12 months upfront. But if we blow people away and give customers amazing value every month, then we have done our job and we should expect happy customers and a healthy business. We can all sit here and debate what we think will happen but really at the end of the day, our actions will speak the loudest. I feel very confident that we'll deliver more value than any other DAW on the market.

The other reason why this is good is that Cakewalk can focus on a handful of features at a time. And there's not time crunch or pressure to release them on a certain date, we'll release them when they are ready. This is going to make for a better products. We'll also be issuing many more fixes and improvements to the product which will make the experience better. This will also make us way more responsive. We are also hiring (http://www.cakewalk.com/Careers), and will be adding a lot more resources to support this new model.

At the end of the 12 months, you can decide for yourself if you thought you got value out of the investment. And if you decide you want to sit it out right now, that's fine too. You can see the progress from the sidelines and decide later if you want to upgrade or buy. Or if you love the DAW you have now, you can be content and happy, and make music It's up to you.

Support: We offer 12 months of support as part of the membership. Honestly, that's much better than most of are other DAW competitors. I think people need to do a little research. Most competitors offer limited time support and then you have to pay. And depending on the issue, if you call after a year, I don't think we'll be hanging up on you.

I'd be happy to try and answer other people's questions. The best way to find out about SONAR X3 and Cakewalk over the past year or so is to ask people who own the product. There are a few people on this thread that aren't customers, and that just hate on us for whatever reason (I even tried to reach out to some of them to understand their issues). SONAR X3 was a great release. It was the most popular release of the X series and even in the last survey, we got a 95%+ satisfaction rating from customers, which was great. Is their room for improvement? Of course there is and that goes for any product. And that's why we think this new membership model is a step in the right direction. It's a win-win for customers and Cakewalk.

Thanks, for reading.

why, when you've already had people's money (essentially for renting), do you penalise those who don't run the 12-month course ??

if i pay for 7 months, but then don't pay for another 5, why do you remove all the bug-fixes etc and send me back to the previous update ?? you've had 7 months of money from me. more than that, if i ever want to get any further updates, i have to start all over again

nope !! your 12-months is not "fair"

if i pay for 6 months, during which time you fix a large bug that affected me, do you really then take that fix from me ??

What you are suggesting is we just let people buy the product for one month or a few months and own everything

that really is not what i am saying

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

Thanks, Andrew. Is it really "available today," though? It doesn't look live on your site yet.

It will be available at NAMM. You can pre-order today at places like Sweetwater.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SonarPltUp

When you click buy now, you will see our pre-sales information:

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Coming-Soon

[Burillo]

that really is not what i am saying

it is what you're saying.

if you subscribe to Sonar and quit after 7 months, you haven't bought Sonar (i.e. you haven't paid in full) so you don't own anything - neither Sonar, nor bugfixes that were there during that time. if you subscribed for 12 months and then quit after 7 months (i.e. spent 19 months on subscription), *then* you get to keep whatever you got for 19 months of subscription - bugfixes and new features included.

one could argue that Sonar should refund whoever didn't reach initial 12 months, but then again you got to use Sonar for all that time, so it's only fair that you don't get a refund.

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

Hi-

Cakewalk Rep here. I come in peace and am willing to answer some questions if people have it. A few things I wanted to address.

Payment/Ownership: When you buy upfront, you own the product outright. This is the same model we have today. With this release we are introducing a bunch of new features. that are available today. What's different is that for the next 12 months you'll also get additional new features, updates, fixes, content, and video tutorials. When we talk about features, we aren't talking about little featurettes but major stuff. In essence for this year you are getting what would have been X4 and X5.

What's also new is monthly payments. We realize that $500 or even $100 can be a lot of money. This is one reason why people pirate software. We'd like to make it more affordable to get into the product. We also don't want to product to vanish when they stop paying for it so we thought 12 months was a fair amount of time. After 12 months, you own the product and ALL the features and updates you received. You can continue paying monthly or opt out. It's up to you.

Why we think this model is good for consumers and Cakewalk: Every customer and potential customer has the right to choose if they want to purchase SONAR. The majority of feedback we have received has been good, and we did a lot of research, focus groups, and surveys. This was well thought out. The fact of the matter is you will never please 100% of the people. This is a fact.

We think this model is good for both the consumer and Cakewalk. There is no doubt that we have to prove this model works. The burden is on us to make this model work. With this release, we have introduced a bunch of cool features and we have some very cool stuff coming soon. I think the value of this update is really amazing considering you are getting what would have been X4 and also X5. So over the course of the next year, it's imperative that we deliver on this promise and that we make our customers happy. Otherwise, at the end of a year, we will have trouble getting customers to renew or buy another 12 months upfront. But if we blow people away and give customers amazing value every month, then we have done our job and we should expect happy customers and a healthy business. We can all sit here and debate what we think will happen but really at the end of the day, our actions will speak the loudest. I feel very confident that we'll deliver more value than any other DAW on the market.

The other reason why this is good is that Cakewalk can focus on a handful of features at a time. And there's not time crunch or pressure to release them on a certain date, we'll release them when they are ready. This is going to make for a better products. We'll also be issuing many more fixes and improvements to the product which will make the experience better. This will also make us way more responsive. We are also hiring (http://www.cakewalk.com/Careers), and will be adding a lot more resources to support this new model.

At the end of the 12 months, you can decide for yourself if you thought you got value out of the investment. And if you decide you want to sit it out right now, that's fine too. You can see the progress from the sidelines and decide later if you want to upgrade or buy. Or if you love the DAW you have now, you can be content and happy, and make music It's up to you.

Support: We offer 12 months of support as part of the membership. Honestly, that's much better than most of are other DAW competitors. I think people need to do a little research. Most competitors offer limited time support and then you have to pay. And depending on the issue, if you call after a year, I don't think we'll be hanging up on you.

I'd be happy to try and answer other people's questions. The best way to find out about SONAR X3 and Cakewalk over the past year or so is to ask people who own the product. There are a few people on this thread that aren't customers, and that just hate on us for whatever reason (I even tried to reach out to some of them to understand their issues). SONAR X3 was a great release. It was the most popular release of the X series and even in the last survey, we got a 95%+ satisfaction rating from customers, which was great. Is their room for improvement? Of course there is and that goes for any product. And that's why we think this new membership model is a step in the right direction. It's a win-win for customers and Cakewalk.

Thanks, for reading.

why, when you've already had people's money (essentially for renting), do you penalise those who don't run the 12-month course ??

if i pay for 7 months, but then don't pay for another 5, why do you remove all the bug-fixes etc and send me back to the previous update ?? you've had 7 months of money from me. more than that, if i ever want to get any further updates, i have to start all over again

nope !! your 12-months is not "fair"

if i pay for 6 months, during which time you fix a large bug that affected me, do you really then take that fix from me ??

What you are suggesting is we just let people buy the product for one month or a few months and own everything

that really is not what i am saying

To be clear, if you choose monthly and don't pay for 12 months, it reverts to demo mode. We are offering people a way to pay for the product over 12 months. There is still the traditional upfront payment which allows you to purchase the product and keep everything you own, no monthly payment to deal with. That's what our competitors do right now. Show me a company that allows you to buy a product and only pay for half of it and still keep it.

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

personally, i would consider SONAR if:
1) they do deliver on their promises, and
2) they implement a track model similar to REAPER, i.e. none of this "mono-track, midi-track, bus track, send track" nonsense

if 1) works out, the 2) will be pretty much the only thing that still keeps me on REAPER. SONAR has kept my attention for a long time now, i like many things in SONAR - the GUI, the bundled stuff, the ProChannel, the new vocal alignment feature, ARA integration... but if underneath all of this lies an inflexible core constrained by decades-old ideas, then i simply can't consider SONAR as an alternative. i'm not interested in analog legacy inside a digital DAW.

Yep, as I said before, there is a lot of pressure to make sure we deliver. This is good for the customer (seriously). I haven't slept in 12 weeks

[whyterabbyt]

To be clear, if you choose monthly and don't pay for 12 months, it reverts to demo mode..

oops, i got that bit wrong earlier. sorry. this makes more sense, admittedly.

[Burillo]

To be clear, if you choose monthly and don't pay for 12 months, it reverts to demo mode. We are offering people a way to pay for the product over 12 months. There is still the traditional upfront payment which allows you to purchase the product and keep everything you own, no monthly payment to deal with. That's what our competitors do right now. Show me a company that allows you to buy a product and only pay for half of it and still keep it.

that answers the "demo" question - it'll be available, presumably always the most recent version so that people can test it fully.

one other point was grace periods. say, someone is a month behind on payments due to various circumstances. would that cause an immediate cancellation, or some leniency would be allowed?

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

bug-fixes are clearly different. if they suddenly fix some bug that's been plaguing users for years, halfway through your rental cycle, are you really suggesting it is "fair" that that be removed when you stop coughing up your monthly rent ??

The first 12 months 'buy' the product. After that, you've got whichever version was most recent, including bugfixes.

If you dont 'buy' then why would you be entitled to keep (a) the version available on the day you got it AND (b) all the updates since? I kinda think that given that you didnt actually 'buy' it outright, just getting (a) is kinda sufficient.

If you're worried about getting bugfixes, pay a 1-year sub, the equivalent of paying for any other product, pay less than you would monthly for 12 months, get all the fixes and 12 months of new features.

again....bugfixes....i wouldn't expect to own the last version as is. but i would expect that my money had gone some way to paying for the development and fixing of these bugs, rather than just rent

you seem to be assuming that those who rent will definitely be able to finish their full-term, but there would be many reasons why that might not be possible. however, in such a case, the developer has gained all and the customer has lost. snakes 'n' ladders

the subscription is unnecessary. as you have said, just buy upfront. the temptation to spread out payments if someone can't afford upfront is balanced with the risk of total forfeit. people who can't afford to update should save until they can

if there is no contingency in place for this situation (perhaps, in this case a whole department dedicated to dealing with legitimacy claims for why people have backed out and should be given a refund), then i can see it coming back to slap them in the face...deservedly so

[LawrenceF]

Show me a company that allows you to buy a product and only pay for half of it and still keep it.

I'd bookmark that one, that company, and spend a lot of money there.

Now you know, this is KVR after all, so you can probably expect to see a funny Photoshopped image of a tow truck repossessing a big Sonar box.

The tow truck driver will almost certainly be a cat.

[poonna]

i'm trying to make the distinction between bugs and additions such as new instruments etc. of course, in various scenarios it would be hard to separate the two, but i think this is where the biggest flaw exists.

again, to clarify, i am talking about things that should always have been working from when they had been introduced

time will tell how happy people will be with such a penalty

It's not that I don't understand your concern. You can probably think about it this way, though. It's like an annual big upgrade. Formerly, you'll have to pay in full up front. Now you have a choice to pay in instalments -- and you need to complete all the instalments to officially own it. You can't just pay 5 instalments and run away with the goods. This applies to anything, not just Sonar.

In the old model, if bug fixes you need happen to be in the next big upgrade, you have no choices but to pay in full to get it. The new model is not really different. You'll still have to pay the full upgrade price to get it if it comes after your version. It's just that now you have a choice to pay in instalments -- and you just have to honour your commitment to complete all the instalments.

On the other hands, after you've paid the full upgrade price, now you can still keep your subscription running, and you'll get your updates and be able to keep them even after you cancel the subscription. Or you could cancel right away after you've paid the full upgrade price. And then wait until there are enough new features that you think are worth it, and do another full upgrade price -- in lump sum or in instalments -- your choice.

I think this is pretty fair.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

that really is not what i am saying

it is what you're saying.

if you subscribe to Sonar and quit after 7 months, you haven't bought Sonar (i.e. you haven't paid in full) so you don't own anything - neither Sonar, nor bugfixes that were there during that time. if you subscribed for 12 months and then quit after 7 months (i.e. spent 19 months on subscription), *then* you get to keep whatever you got for 19 months of subscription - bugfixes and new features included.

one could argue that Sonar should refund whoever didn't reach initial 12 months, but then again you got to use Sonar for all that time, so it's only fair that you don't get a refund.

then what the f**k am i paying for ?? if a bugfix pops up in the 6 months i am subscribed, am i not entitled to it ?? have i not paid towards it ?? why would i lose something that was faulty for the last few full upgrades (before this system was dreamt up), just because i stopped paying for my protection ??

once again, i don't expect to own a full product, nor even the big new additions

[Burillo]

again....bugfixes....i wouldn't expect to own the last version as is. but i would expect that my money had gone some way to paying for the development and fixing of these bugs, rather than just rent

bugfixes for what? you don't own Sonar unless you spend 12 months on subscription, so naturally there's no bugs to fix - there's no product to fix bugs in. they got your payment, in return you got to use Sonar for all this time, despite never paying the full price.

how do you envision an alternative? let's say you spend 6 months on subscription and then quit. what do you expect to own at that point?

you seem to be assuming that those who rent will definitely be able to finish their full-term, but there would be many reasons why that might not be possible. however, in such a case, the developer has gained all and the customer has lost. snakes 'n' ladders

as i said above, you got to use Sonar all this time.

[basslinemaster]

Many software companies want to jump on the subscription idea because it's a guaranteed revenue stream. Instead of having to come up with really good updates and extras that motivate people to buy an upgrade, they just tie them into the rent model instead. Then they can relax a bit and bait-talk endlessly about all the great things coming sometime soon - so you stay subscribed. A little fear of what you'll lose if you stop renting is also vital to the formula. It's an ugly emotional model that generates and relies on customer anxiety.

But it works OK so long as not too many companies in your field do the same. Then it very quickly gets crowded and people need to make choices about how much they want to pay out in constant rent. It's very different psychology to a single purchase.

Companies typically move to this model when sales are flat or declining, they have income crisis, or the software has become so mature that all that can be added is useless bloatware that results in fewer upgrades each year. People "camp" at a good version and quite rightly see no reason to pay more.

It's to combat this that companies want to force you to pay rent.

If you still think this model is good then contemplate the situation if every program, synth, effect and app was on this renting model. Want to edit that track from a few years back? Hmmm, still renting all those VSTs are we or maybe you start getting little popups everywhere of "subscription expired". Maybe some will still work, maybe crippled, or no function at all. Who can say?

So I hope this little experiment in revenue-generation fails miserably. It's a bad precedent for the industry.

Hear, hear, Spirit, very succinctly put, I totally agree. We ALL need to boycott any company who tries to rent us software.

And presumably with this model, there will no way in hell to resell what you have paid for either.