any future for MacBooks in music production ?

[lnikj]

@Bones - You might not be fan of Finder but at least it doesn't leave bits of itself lying around the screen, which happens to me on an almost daily basis with Windows.

What on Earth are you talking about? You have a shitty old graphics card and that's Windows' fault, is it?

11 week old P3200 Quadro ?

But it will be the onboard graphics that are doing it (also 11 weeks old).

[fmr]

@Bones - You might not be fan of Finder but at least it doesn't leave bits of itself lying around the screen, which happens to me on an almost daily basis with Windows.

What on Earth are you talking about? You have a shitty old graphics card and that's Windows' fault, is it?

11 week old P3200 Quadro ?

But it will be the onboard graphics that are doing it (also 11 weeks old).

You aren't even even sure what's happening in your computer, yet you are blaming Windows. Typical...

[lnikj]

@Bones - You might not be fan of Finder but at least it doesn't leave bits of itself lying around the screen, which happens to me on an almost daily basis with Windows.

What on Earth are you talking about? You have a shitty old graphics card and that's Windows' fault, is it?

11 week old P3200 Quadro ?

But it will be the onboard graphics that are doing it (also 11 weeks old).

You aren't even even sure what's happening in your computer, yet you are blaming Windows. Typical...

The point is that on a Mac the hardware and software are integrated. On a PC they are not. I get artifacts left on my screen, folder images or file names, from explorer dialogs, that I have never seen on a Mac. Maybe it is Microsoft's problem, maybe Hewlett Packard's, maybe Intel's or maybe Nvidia's. Probably some update to one of them will sort it out. On OS X only one thing needs updates.

Don't mistake me for an Apple fanboi - I am out of love with their hardware which is why I have switched to PC, but OS X remains a better OS than Windows.

[fmr]

The point is that on a Mac the hardware and software are integrated. On a PC they are not. I get artifacts left on my screen, folder images or file names, from explorer dialogs, that I have never seen on a Mac. Maybe it is Microsoft's problem, maybe Hewlett Packard's, maybe Intel's or maybe Nvidia's. Probably some update to one of them will sort it out. On OS X only one thing needs updates.

Yes, it sounds like a driver problem, almost for certain.

You have to deal with multiple sources each time you have problems, that's indeed true, but OTOH, you most of the time have a solution, and you get it quickly, and usually that solution doesn't mean having to pay anything or compromise anything.

And if you have a faulty item, you can open the unit and replace THAT faulty item, which most of the time doesn't cost you much. You can even replace it with a better one. There are no free meals, though. The tradeoff of that freedom is that you have to deal with multiple vendors, and take care of the configurations yourself.

[BONES]

That depends. If I buy a Dell laptop, then Dell will fix any problem that I have with it, regardless of what that is. For less than US$200 I can get 5 years of next day, on site service from them. How much back-to-base service would that buy from Apple?

11 week old P3200 Quadro ?
But it will be the onboard graphics that are doing it (also 11 weeks old).

8th Gen Intel CPU? Did you purchase the system or put it together yourself. You know as well as I do that you shouldn't be having any issues. Intel's on-board graphics can run two monitors easily, so why put up with it? Even the Quadro card in my old MacPro wasn't that bad. I mean, it was terrible but it at least did most of the basics (although it never liked drawing web pages for some reason).

How many monitors are you running? Quadros are not designed for multi-monitor use, you are supposed to use one card per screen, otherwise you lose all the performance you paid for.

The point is that on a Mac the hardware and software are integrated. On a PC they are not.

That's absolute bullshit. First off, every older Mac Pro where I work has a different graphics card in it today than the one it shipped with. They have also all had their RAM and storage upgraded multiple times using generic and 3rd party components. Secondly, when I buy a laptop from any name-brand OEM, it will be at least as integrated as an Apple laptop. Asus, Gigabyte and MSI were all making motherboards for many years before they branched out into making complete systems. Dell laptops use proprietary motherboards with Dell-specific BIOS. Apple laptop have absolutely no more or better integration than any half-decent PC. In fact, a lot of the time their integration is worse because Apple are writing drivers for components they source from 3rd party suppliers. e.g. Who is going to write better drivers for a graphics card, the company who designed and manufactured it or Apple?

I get artifacts left on my screen, folder images or file names, from explorer dialogs, that I have never seen on a Mac.

So you bought a cheap, shitty screen and that's not your fault? Because I've never had any of those problems and, if I did, I'd have returned the offending device and got something else. OTOH, one of my neighbours had the well documented problem with her MB Pro of the screen coating lifting. Sure, Apple fixed it for free but she was without it for nearly three weeks while they did it.

Maybe it is Microsoft's problem, maybe Hewlett Packard's, maybe Intel's or maybe Nvidia's. Probably some update to one of them will sort it out. On OS X only one thing needs updates.

It's the same if you buy a Dell computer or an HP computer or an Asus computer. It's only when you build your own that you have to go through that process. Even then, if you buy it all from the same place and get them to put it together for you, they will assume all the responsibility for keeping it running.

but OS X remains a better OS than Windows.

That doesn't flow at all from anything else you have said, which has all been about the hardware.

[lnikj]

@BONES - It's an HP ZBook i7-8850H.

I don't think that HP are going to send out an engineer to fix some driver problem.

[Coxy]

That depends. If I buy a Dell laptop, then Dell will fix any problem that I have with it, regardless of what that is. For less than US$200 I can get 5 years of next day, on site service from them. How much back-to-base service would that buy from Apple?

11 week old P3200 Quadro ?
But it will be the onboard graphics that are doing it (also 11 weeks old).

8th Gen Intel CPU? Did you purchase the system or put it together yourself. You know as well as I do that you shouldn't be having any issues. Intel's on-board graphics can run two monitors easily, so why put up with it? Even the Quadro card in my old MacPro wasn't that bad. I mean, it was terrible but it at least did most of the basics (although it never liked drawing web pages for some reason).

How many monitors are you running? Quadros are not designed for multi-monitor use, you are supposed to use one card per screen, otherwise you lose all the performance you paid for.

The point is that on a Mac the hardware and software are integrated. On a PC they are not.

That's absolute bullshit. First off, every older Mac Pro where I work has a different graphics card in it today than the one it shipped with. They have also all had their RAM and storage upgraded multiple times using generic and 3rd party components. Secondly, when I buy a laptop from any name-brand OEM, it will be at least as integrated as an Apple laptop. Asus, Gigabyte and MSI were all making motherboards for many years before they branched out into making complete systems. Dell laptops use proprietary motherboards with Dell-specific BIOS. Apple laptop have absolutely no more or better integration than any half-decent PC. In fact, a lot of the time their integration is worse because Apple are writing drivers for components they source from 3rd party suppliers. e.g. Who is going to write better drivers for a graphics card, the company who designed and manufactured it or Apple?

I get artifacts left on my screen, folder images or file names, from explorer dialogs, that I have never seen on a Mac.

So you bought a cheap, shitty screen and that's not your fault? Because I've never had any of those problems and, if I did, I'd have returned the offending device and got something else. OTOH, one of my neighbours had the well documented problem with her MB Pro of the screen coating lifting. Sure, Apple fixed it for free but she was without it for nearly three weeks while they did it.

Maybe it is Microsoft's problem, maybe Hewlett Packard's, maybe Intel's or maybe Nvidia's. Probably some update to one of them will sort it out. On OS X only one thing needs updates.

It's the same if you buy a Dell computer or an HP computer or an Asus computer. It's only when you build your own that you have to go through that process. Even then, if you buy it all from the same place and get them to put it together for you, they will assume all the responsibility for keeping it running.

but OS X remains a better OS than Windows.

That doesn't flow at all from anything else you have said, which has all been about the hardware.

MacOS is inherently more stable.

[telecode]

You ain't seen nothing yet:

BONES seems pretty insecure about anyone challenging Windows.

I imagine that's a much safer way for you to see it.

Well, for one I am still puzzled that Windows needs ASIO4ALL to produce a decent audio stream. The whole driver thing is weird in general. The number of times I needed to hunt down usable drivers for a particular hardware is slightly absurd.

When you say "hunt down", I assume you mean go to the vendor's website and check for the latest version. You know, the same thing you do with any software application you intend to install. A driver is software, making sure you have the latest version, instead of relying on Microsoft or Apple to provide it for you, is just good practice.

As for ASIO4all, nobody needs it, it's just one of the options you have. I understand that options are strange and frightening to Mac users but the rest of us see choice as a good thing. When I play Equator with my Roli Seaboard, for example, I get excellent realtime response without having to use ASIO. ASIO has just become a bit of a standard for more pro type use but things run fine using MME or DirectX, both of which are built into Windows.

But the one thing that really turned me off is the way Windows keeps critical system information in a single registry database. If that gets corrupted (which happened to me more than once) you turn the entire system into a brick.

Really? 24 years of PC use and it's never happened to me even once. Sounds like it may have been user error and not of the "you're not holding it right" variety.

Sorry, but that is an engineering perspective, it is not at all how the creative process works.

Well, the thing with it all is that we don't get to choose by sheer force of will which field of endeavour might intrude into another. Getting the engineering side of things right will usually prevent it from interfering with the creative side of things at a crucial point in the process. Because I gotta tell you, being forced to "commit and bounce" when maybe you weren't really at the right point to do so, just because your computer maxxed out, will seriously limit your creative freedom thereafter.

But to be perfectly honest. Choice of OS is a matter or personal preference.

So why bother with all these bullshit justifications? Why not just say that? Of course, you're completely wrong but at least you'd be honest about it.

The reality is that you shouldn't choose your OS because it's not the most important thing. The most important things are the applications you want to run so you choose those and then you look for the OS that best supports them. Given that pretty much everything these days is developed for Windows and ported to Mac, it means that your chosen applications will almost always perform better on Windows than on macOS, so you go with Windows because it's the sensible, pragmatic choice most of the time (94% of the time, if market share is any indication).

There is no inferior or superior, there are just workflows that fit individual users better or not.

That's just ridiculous, of course there are superior and inferior and it's easily quantified. That there are people happy to pay a massive premium for an inferior workflow or experience is irrelevant, it's still inferior.

Agreed. It gets incredibly emotive for people to the point they resort to generalised or even personal attacks.

What? This is a quiet, reasonable discussion. No-one is getting emotional, unless you are?

@Bones - You might not be fan of Finder but at least it doesn't leave bits of itself lying around the screen, which happens to me on an almost daily basis with Windows.

What on Earth are you talking about? You have a shitty old graphics card and that's Windows' fault, is it?
All I have are Intel's on-board graphics and I get nothing even remotely like that so I can't imagine what sort of creaky old thing you're working with.
And whilst Finder might not do what you describe, I can be reasonably sure that at one point during every work day it will crash and I'll lose all my open folders and have to find everything all over again. On Friday it did it to me three times. The strange thing about it is that when you go to reopen Finder a minute or two later, it throws up a selection of tabs I had open several weeks previously. (Because of the way Finder works, I find it best if I have up to 10 tabs open in three different windows.) I think the last time Explorer crashed I was probably still on Windows 98, maybe 18 years ago.

When Apple where on PPC, they did have an advantage for creative work. Once they moved to generic Intel chips, it all became very, well, generic.

That's not true at all. The reason they moved to Intel was because PPC was falling further and further behind. I can remember the editor I worked with in the late 90s, running Avid on Mac OS9.x and how unbelievably slow and fragile that whole system was. She absolutely hated it with a passion. The issue I had teaching, described earlier, were on PPC Macs, too.

As far as mounts, it should not be a big issue. The windows machine probably just has discovery turned on and the OS X machine has it off.

Yes, it's turned off on purpose by IT because it doesn't work reliably and can cause network problems. We have an application loaded with scripts to make the process easy these days, we don't have to use the Apple+K thing any more. But it still takes time and if you don't restart your Mac every day, you are just inviting more trouble. What does my head in is that the Apple die-hards in the office just accept all this as the price you have to pay to use Apple computers and the fact that it doesn't happen with PCs doesn't even give them pause.

Actually you were misinformed. The PPC was a much better chip and architecture for graphics at the time. My understanding is that apple stream lined onto the Intel chip to control costs. But I don't really know as I don't work for Apple.

[jancivil]

"First off, every older Mac Pro where I work has a different graphics card in it today than the one it shipped with. They have also all had their RAM and storage upgraded multiple times using generic and 3rd party components."

That's hilarious, it's the storage drives and the RAM modules to you and not the connections. Nicely cherry-picked![/sarcasm]

Thanks for the reveal, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

[AnX]

oh the irony

[BONES]

MacOS is inherently more stable.

1. Prove it. Because all the evidence I have from 20 years of using both says otherwise.
2. FFS, learn how to use quotes more effectively.

Actually you were misinformed. The PPC was a much better chip and architecture for graphics at the time.

CPU doesn't do graphics, it does maths. Something like an Avid system back then was just as much about the peripherals you had to have to make it work (it wasn't a software-only solution at that time) but, even though it was actually developed on Mac back then, it still worked better on PC. A couple of years later they switched to PC for development and it got even better for PC users. And, as I mentioned earlier, when I was teaching a bunch of PPC powered G3s weren't even able to draw an application's GUI. That alone indicates it is probably you who is misinformed, wouldn't you say?

[Forgotten]

CPU doesn't do graphics, it does maths.

It does graphics if it has integrated graphics cores built into the CPU die, and it certainly does more than math - it also handles logic operations, control instructions, input/output, and anything else its instruction set covers.

[samsam]

oh the irony

Obviously boney and nando have got fairly well defined roles in this thread.

But beyond being the third Doze user to regularly troll the Mac users, what exactly is your role, as a never-Mac user?

I'm not best friends with Ben like you guys, one time I stepped in to react, I get a board warning. What about you? Got carte blanche to post whatever no? Seems like preferential treatment for the old guard carried way beyond its natural lifespan. You should all try bahavlmg like regular forum users and, just occasionally, don't post your shit, cos only 3 other old timers are impressed.

[Coxy]

1. Prove it. Because all the evidence I have from 20 years of using both says otherwise.
2. FFS, learn how to use quotes more effectively.

1.Wheres you're evidence for this?

2. I'll do as I please.

Mac OS is built on BSD/derivative.

MacOS is is inherently more stable.

[AnX]

oh the irony

Obviously boney and nando have got fairly well defined roles in this thread.

But beyond being the third Doze user to regularly troll the Mac users, what exactly is your role, as a never-Mac user?

I'm not best friends with Ben like you guys, one time I stepped in to react, I get a board warning. What about you? Got carte blanche to post whatever no?

im pretty sure the words 'oh the irony' are at best, very mildy offense, if at all, and dont warrant a board warning.

if you are offended, you can always report the post.


EDIT: i see you edited your post

ok, I'll try "bahavlmg like regular forum users", whatever that is...