Zero Delay Feedback Filter (How to test if your synth has a )- Xils-Lab White Paper -

[Ingonator]

My conclusion is: I like Diva but the hype around it is a bit beyond my personal taste

dont read it then, ignore the threads

...and as said this is just my personal opinion and i didn't encourage anyone to follow my opinion.

you sure repeat it enough tho....

Hi Kriminal,

i am trying to cool down and/or ignore those threads but sometimes it's not so easy as you know yourself...

I encourage others to cool down too and to move on with the topic of this thread like i tried to do too this morning.

One thing like Nilzie already mentioned would be to respect that there are other great products (or VA synths to be precise) than Diva which have a focus on different things (e.g CPU use) and also other features maybe.


Ingo

You keep saying that there is some problem and lots of people are saying this and it is not true. Please stop spreading this false idea when you have nothing to back it up but that you want to say it. You keep pushing this false point and it starts to feel like you want to make a conflict where one doesn't exist.

You didn't read the Tone2 Saurus thread or the ones where Lotuzia was constantly attacked by certain users from the u-he "camp" lately? It seems that there was/is some kind of u-he->Tone2/XILS-lab "twist" happening after DIVA arrived. That's what I meant, and I think that's what Ingonator meant too.

I'm neutral. Don't shoot me!

peace.

Exactly. Looks like at least one person (OK, two with Laurent added...) understands me.


Ingo

[pdxindy]

One thing like Nilzie already mentioned would be to respect that there are other great products (or VA synths to be precise) than Diva which have a focus on different things (e.g CPU use) and also other features maybe.


Ingo

You keep saying that there is some problem and lots of people are saying this and it is not true. Please stop spreading this false idea when you have nothing to back it up but that you want to say it. You keep pushing this false point and it starts to feel like you want to make a conflict where one doesn't exist.

You didn't read the Tone2 Saurus thread or the ones where Lotuzia was constantly attacked by certain users from the u-he "camp" lately? It seems that there was/is some kind of u-he->Tone2/XILS-lab "twist" happening after DIVA arrived. That's what I meant, and I think that's what Ingonator meant too.

I'm neutral. Don't shoot me!

peace.

I did read that thread and posted in it. There have been dozens of threads where there is some heated discussion. Happens regularly on KVR. The only thing that seems odd to me regarding Tone2 is the way that accusations of malware keep resurfacing and that has been ongoing for a long time and has nothing to do with u-he or 'fans' of.

Regarding that thread, Tone2 basically claimed that Saurus was just as good as Diva but with less cpu... Tone2 made the direct comparison and so invited a heated discussion. And so it happened and it is no big deal. But any developer who in their own marketing says their product is better than a specific competitors product is inviting controversy. It is disingenuous to then point elsewhere and not acknowledge the source.

The twist is that both Tone2 and XILS developers have directly targeted Diva and that is the source of what you are talking about. It has little/nothing to do with users! Go to the u-he forum and there are no posts or discussions about Tone2 or XILS or their synths. I am also on the u-he beta forum and there is no discussion there either. It is not even on the radar! It is a non-issue for users. THERE IS NO USER WAR! and I really doubt that without developers pointing the attention there that there would even have been much comparison or discussion at all.

[xh3rv]

Would it really have saved us some nerves like Urs said if Xils Lab had started that "blurb" instead of U-He?

As a rabid u-he fan ...

Urs has been talking about Diva's filters for quite a while, discussions came up in DSP/developer threads where he's been rather generous in explaining things, including some of the finer points of the non-linearities and numeric solving that really stand out in terms of recovering s-plane filter behaviors in the digital realm.

The term 0-delay-feedback was used there without controversy, but it was also in context with other technical assumptions and not so essential to the whole thrust of the discussion. It's tricky in one sense because what the term strictly denotes isn't exactly what was connoted by it's use in there discussions. Papers on the topic all address non-linearities in some fashion, clearly stating it's not trivial (Vadim's is very concise here) so this isn't completely insensible. At least no one seemed to object much to the language which is, after all, just a shortcut for representing some fairly complicated concepts.

However, somehow *after* Diva has distinguished herself for spinning digital straw into analog gold there's been controversy over 0-delay-feedback. I don't think it's wrong for developers to use the term 0-delay-feedback if it legitimately applies to their tech, but not more explicitly clarifying the context technically I think hurts the discussion overall.

There's an assumption that overlooking some details is sort of a cheap ploy ... reading closely, I'm not sure I'd accuse anyone of that, but it's sort of an easy conclusion to make. Ultimately I doubt it's really an effective tactic, anyway. Most users will never be exposed to the on-paper, in-code versions of the technology but the sonic realizations will say everything.

[ariston]

You didn't read the Tone2 Saurus thread or the ones where Lotuzia was constantly attacked by certain users from the u-he "camp" lately? It seems that there was/is some kind of u-he->Tone2/XILS-lab "twist" happening after DIVA arrived. That's what I meant, and I think that's what Ingonator meant too.

Hm... only speaking for myself here. I don't think that calling someone's motives and style into question qualifies as an "attack". I get pissed off at the actions of a certain individual, not a company or a synth. I have praised the other synths quite enough; I happen to prefer Diva to them, but so what? It doesn't mean that I think all others are crap. Far from it, and I've said so numerous times.

What Ingo (and others) are doing here is: they're trying to polarize a "debate" that, to me, seems pretty fair, all things considered (this being teh webz and all). There are no "camps"; these are all in your head. There's personal taste and preference, yes; we all are pretty passionate about our hobby (job?), and we all like to shoot our mouths off from time to time. Some folks don't understand tongue in cheek and irony, so that may help fuel the "debate", I don't know.

I recognize a great product when I see it, and I recognize a company that treats its customers well, maintains an active relationship with the community, and keeps a level head and both feet on the ground. Is it so hard to understand that these things make a difference? They inspire (a sometimes fierce) loyalty, something that most developers would like to achieve. It doesn't turn people into blind idiots, as you seem to assume.

What was the topic again?

[OutCider]

So when are the new soundbanks coming out?

This thread will be great for business

Enough rope, etc...

[dreamkeeper]

What was the topic again?

"Does in a KVR thread with 0-delay feedback the resonance go overboard, and can judicious use of the mute button prevent that?"

[Ingonator]

So when are the new soundbanks coming out?

This thread will be great for business

Enough rope, etc...

If we talk about Xils Lab there is a something new in the "pipeline". What exactly is of course a secret...


Ingo

[pdxindy]

What Ingo (and others) are doing here is: they're trying to polarize a "debate" that, to me, seems pretty fair, all things considered (this being teh webz and all). There are no "camps"; these are all in your head.

I concur that debate about actual synths has been pretty fair and measured all around.

Quite a bit of back and forth has nothing to do with synths or developers either. There were pages and pages in the Saurus thread where a few people were insisting that Tone2 did not reference Diva when it obviously did and the posts were quoted that proved it but that silly assertion was still being made. Kinda similar to this thread with claims of camps saying all other synths are crap and so on. Ridiculous assertions that do not stand up to any real scrutiny.

I enjoy discussions (even vigorous) of synths, especially when people post audio examples of what they like about a certain synth or synth feature.

[OutCider]

So when are the new soundbanks coming out?

This thread will be great for business

Enough rope, etc...

If we talk about Xils Lab there is a something new in the "pipeline". What exactly is of course a secret...


Ingo

It's ok, you can let air traffic control tell it to circle for a while, but it'll have to land sometime

[_leras]

So when are the new soundbanks coming out?

This thread will be great for business

Enough rope, etc...

If we talk about Xils Lab there is a something new in the "pipeline". What exactly is of course a secret...


Ingo

Hopefully it's better filters so that Lotuzia can stop his constant whining about other synths that sound better...

The only bitterness I've noticed on the boards have been from him because Synthix isn't as highly regarded as some others that came out at the same time, and fared poorly in direct comparison.

It can't be denied that Diva is probably the best sounding VST out there for analog emulation - just as it can't be denied it uses a lot of CPU, and is more limited in range than quite a few other synths. It is however ambitious in it's goals and attention to detail which is why it succeeds.

The latest xils synth could have been considered ambitious but I can't believe anywhere near as much effort went into attention to detail matching oscillators and filters etc.

People compare everything to everything on this forum. Xils/Lotuzia forcing the issue of synthix vs diva in such a crude manner hasn't done them any favours. Trying to hijack every other synth thread to plug their synth etc etc...

[Kriminal]

So when are the new soundbanks coming out?

This thread will be great for business

Enough rope, etc...

If we talk about Xils Lab there is a something new in the "pipeline". What exactly is of course a secret...


Ingo

Hopefully it's better filters so that Lotuzia can stop his constant whining about other synths that sound better...

The only bitterness I've noticed on the boards have been from him because Synthix isn't as highly regarded as some others that came out at the same time, and fared poorly in direct comparison.

It can't be denied that Diva is probably the best sounding VST out there for analog emulation - just as it can't be denied it uses a lot of CPU, and is more limited in range than quite a few other synths. It is however ambitious in it's goals and attention to detail which is why it succeeds.

The latest xils synth could have been considered ambitious but I can't believe anywhere near as much effort went into attention to detail matching oscillators and filters etc.

People compare everything to everything on this forum. Xils/Lotuzia forcing the issue of synthix vs diva in such a crude manner hasn't done them any favours. Trying to hijack every other synth thread to plug their synth etc etc...

+1 million

[LeVzi]

What Ingo (and others) are doing here is: they're trying to polarize a "debate" that, to me, seems pretty fair, all things considered (this being teh webz and all). There are no "camps"; these are all in your head.

I concur that debate about actual synths has been pretty fair and measured all around.

Quite a bit of back and forth has nothing to do with synths or developers either. There were pages and pages in the Saurus thread where a few people were insisting that Tone2 did not reference Diva when it obviously did and the posts were quoted that proved it but that silly assertion was still being made. Kinda similar to this thread with claims of camps saying all other synths are crap and so on. Ridiculous assertions that do not stand up to any real scrutiny.

I enjoy discussions (even vigorous) of synths, especially when people post audio examples of what they like about a certain synth or synth feature.

If there is no user war, then why are you always so keen to stick your oar in to any thread regarding anything other than a u-he product and bash it ? You stir it as much as the next guy. Even doing it in this thread, wind your neck in ffs, if you can't even hold a normal conversation.

[KBSoundSmith]

What Ingo (and others) are doing here is: they're trying to polarize a "debate" that, to me, seems pretty fair, all things considered (this being teh webz and all). There are no "camps"; these are all in your head.

I concur that debate about actual synths has been pretty fair and measured all around.

Quite a bit of back and forth has nothing to do with synths or developers either. There were pages and pages in the Saurus thread where a few people were insisting that Tone2 did not reference Diva when it obviously did and the posts were quoted that proved it but that silly assertion was still being made. Kinda similar to this thread with claims of camps saying all other synths are crap and so on. Ridiculous assertions that do not stand up to any real scrutiny.

I enjoy discussions (even vigorous) of synths, especially when people post audio examples of what they like about a certain synth or synth feature.

If there is no user war, then why are you always so keen to stick your oar in to any thread regarding anything other than a u-he product and bash it ? You stir it as much as the next guy. Even doing it in this thread, wind your neck in ffs, if you can't even hold a normal conversation.

Hmm, and who was the next guy? I don't think I've ever seen anything but an inflammatory post from you. Why not back off for once.

[Lotuzia]

.........

The twist is that both Tone2 and XILS developers have directly targeted Diva and that is the source of what you are talking about. It has little/nothing to do with users! Go to the u-he forum and there are no posts or discussions about Tone2 or XILS or their synths. I am also on the u-he beta forum and there is no discussion there either. It is not even on the radar! It is a non-issue for users. THERE IS NO USER WAR! and I really doubt that without developers pointing the attention there that there would even have been much comparison or discussion at all.

You are misinformed. Several things you said beeing not exact, so please let me reestablish facts.

1/ Xils did not target Diva . Never. Why would we have ? Our instruments are obviously totally different : They sound different, they have many different features, and they offer a different vision of what can be a synthesizer.

2/ Its in the U-he forum that Hakey declared that "Xils had no 0df filters" He made sincere public apologizes for that in the middle of this thread, and I shoud not have to recall this. And thanks to him for his honnesty.

If saying that Xils-lab have 0df filters is seen from your POV as "targeting" another synthesizer, then maybe you should ask yourself the good question : Why do you relate/connect everything or every event in the world to your favorite unit ? isnt it simply a bit of an egocentric behaviour ?

Some technical specifications can be common, or similar, for certain instruments, et voilà.

A musical instrument however is much more than a pile of specs : Its an unique thing, and with complex and mature instruments you'll see much more differences in all domains between two units that one commonly thinks : Actually they are legions.

As for Saurus, I can't talk for Tone2 : My personal opinion is that I see no problem in them claiming they had 0df algorythms too. Why wouldn't they ? A very different approach to what have been expressed by some people in their Saurus thread.

[Lotuzia]

Hopefully it's better filters so that Lotuzia can stop his constant whining about other synths that sound better...

The only bitterness I've noticed on the boards have been from him because Synthix isn't as highly regarded as some others that came out at the same time, and fared poorly in direct comparison.

It can't be denied that Diva is probably the best sounding VST out there for analog emulation - just as it can't be denied it uses a lot of CPU, and is more limited in range than quite a few other synths. It is however ambitious in it's goals and attention to detail which is why it succeeds.

The latest xils synth could have been considered ambitious but I can't believe anywhere near as much effort went into attention to detail matching oscillators and filters etc.

People compare everything to everything on this forum. Xils/Lotuzia forcing the issue of synthix vs diva in such a crude manner hasn't done them any favours. Trying to hijack every other synth thread to plug their synth etc etc...

Your ridiculous and childish Xils hatred just show a bit more in each post you make my good Mr Leras.

( Hope to see you in the next Xils thread I was beginnig to be worried not to see you in this one )