Just downloaded Reason 6.5 plus a couple of RE's from the shop...

[kmonkey]

We got some feedback about this, especially from you guys, so I'll pass it on to the product managers!

Since you are doing that may i ask about one particular and a bit crucial thing which is not RE SDK related.

I tried Reason 6.5 demo. And as some users here posted and i just checked your forum and i see same type of question there:

Why does Reason not have automatic plugin delay compensation?

Propellerhead introduced several devices which add delay to signal path, now with RE there are even more of them.

Do you have any clue on when this could be addressed?

[mrdr]

kmonkey ,check this post from Marcus Zetterquist.

[kmonkey]

kmonkey ,check this post from Marcus Zetterquist.

That's it. Thanks.

[v1o]

That last part means that since we do the framework, we can update the surrounding things even without the Rack Extension itself needing an update - we have the graphics and DSP. In practice this means that developers never need to worry about 32/64/128(!) bit, new OS versions or anything like that. They send us one RE and that's compatible with all support versions of Windows and Mac right now and in the future. When Reason runs on a system, so will all Rack Extensions ever made.

On this point about. Does this mean that developers give you their dsp source code?

[myrna]

How many VST plugins do you think there were when VST was launched?

You're ignoring the point that there are many, many permutations of nearly every kind of plugin available in VST world now, so this is the reasoning behind the Props developing yet another format to add to...

VST
AU
RTAS
TDM
AAX
LADSPA

..., which leads to the conclusion that the decision was 100% commercial, and 0% customer (as if that ever actually happens) or tech focussed. The technical excuses they are presenting don't add up any more than if they wrote a VST -> VST/RE Reason wrapper that ran in a seperate process anyway.

Now if there was an RE -> VST wrapper then all of this talk of investment being tied to Reason would end. Maybe that's an idea.

The only standard is vst, the rest are derivatves. Besides, plugins can be huge 40-50 gb and very complex instruments. REs are only few mb light and quite simple vintage synths or effects. You cannot compare vst to REs. I understand the marketing aspect, but saying RE is a new plugin extension is a trick. You'll never see omnisphere, kontakt, alchemy, reaktor etc. in RE format. What Reason needs is vst support, bypassing the modular rack GUI concept. Reason nowadays is the sequencer environment, not the racks. People in PH forum claiming "we finally have plugins in Reason" are simply ignoring what real plugins are. By the way REs are nice.

[puzzlefactory]

Ever thought that maybe the people with 20 hosts and 100's of VST's are not actually the people props are targeting with RE's?

I'd say they know their customer base quite well by now.

Maybe they are targeting people like my girlfriend who uses nothing but Reason, does not read forums, does not give a shit about VST's. She now has a way to purchase new synts/effect that work in the only way she know how to work.

I think this is probably the case. Their whole ethos has always been that you can do everything in Reason, this is just a way of opening it up and providing more modules from other companies.


I also think piracy is a big issue too. There are many people out there that use cracked copies of pluggins and hosts.. That had to be a consideration when they decided how to open up Reason and the way they have gone about it means they can restrict the user base to legitimate users.

[eXode]

Not a lot of VST but this was long long ago in cubasevst32 v5 times when DXI was still fighting it, etc. today in 2012 expectations are much higher. The only out for a little while comment does not hold much water therefore. Props control the game, the field, the audience. Wait longer and don't release until more choices.

I'm not saying all the REs are lacking innovation, Radical piano is really sweet, etch red is fantastic, but as owner of many VST plugs that were converted into REs, it's much less wow and a lot of ho-hum. Not to fault the devs, I'm talking my own experience based on my own circumstances.

I'm not arguing against the crossgrades issue, I think people have the right to be pissed about that. I would be pissed too if I would have purchased all those plugins as VST full price and had to pay for them again.

I think that the "lack of innovation" ties to that 3rd party dev's are testing the waters with this, they want to know if it will be worth their while before putting man hours and money into something more complex. Waiting would not have changed that because 3rd parties still need to find out that it works for them. I also think that the dev's that are on board might work as 'pilots' for the rest. If it adds up, more will join.

Thus I believe that waiting would have changed nothing for either the innovation or amount of choices. It's just a guess but that's how I think it is.

The dev's also have to learn the Reason rack environment. That is why it's important for users like you and me to tell them when we think something is wrong. "Hey, why so few CV I/O on your device!? Reason is all about CV I/O and I want more!" :)

[v1o]

Ever thought that maybe the people with 20 hosts and 100's of VST's are not actually the people props are targeting with RE's?

I'd say they know their customer base quite well by now.

Maybe they are targeting people like my girlfriend who uses nothing but Reason, does not read forums, does not give a shit about VST's. She now has a way to purchase new synts/effect that work in the only way she know how to work.

I think this is probably the case. Their whole ethos has always been that you can do everything in Reason, this is just a way of opening it up and providing more modules from other companies.


I also think piracy is a big issue too. There are many people out there that use cracked copies of pluggins and hosts.. That had to be a consideration when they decided how to open up Reason and the way they have gone about it means they can restrict the user base to legitimate users.

I think so too. Piracy is rampant in this industry. I've seen young kids with £300 laptops running over £10,000 worth of pirated software and sample libraries. Some of them have even put records out.

Reason itself was highly pirated up until version 5. I don't think anyone actually bothered to pay for it. But the current user base is 100% legit paying customers, which is a good market for developers.

[Anosou]

That last part means that since we do the framework, we can update the surrounding things even without the Rack Extension itself needing an update - we have the graphics and DSP. In practice this means that developers never need to worry about 32/64/128(!) bit, new OS versions or anything like that. They send us one RE and that's compatible with all support versions of Windows and Mac right now and in the future. When Reason runs on a system, so will all Rack Extensions ever made.

On this point about. Does this mean that developers give you their dsp source code?

No, not exactly. They deliver a certain type of file that contains DSP code, graphics and some other junk. I'm no expert but we don't get raw code at least.

The only standard is vst, the rest are derivatves. Besides, plugins can be huge 40-50 gb and very complex instruments. REs are only few mb light and quite simple vintage synths or effects. You cannot compare vst to REs. I understand the marketing aspect, but saying RE is a new plugin extension is a trick. You'll never see omnisphere, kontakt, alchemy, reaktor etc. in RE format. What Reason needs is vst support, bypassing the modular rack GUI concept. Reason nowadays is the sequencer environment, not the racks. People in PH forum claiming "we finally have plugins in Reason" are simply ignoring what real plugins are. By the way REs are nice.

Not entirely true. REs can be huge 40-50 GB and very complex instruments too! We wouldn't create a new format where this was not at all possible as it'd severely limit what could be done for the users. The main limitations in version 1 (!) are with graphics. There are some other things that are not there in version 1 but we don't plan to stop here anyway.

Remember that all REs that are currently out where made with both alpha and beta versions of the SDK, it is entirely possible that the waters were tested.

[headquest]

You'll never see omnisphere, kontakt, alchemy, reaktor etc. in RE format. ... People in PH forum claiming "we finally have plugins in Reason" are simply ignoring what real plugins are. By the way REs are nice.

Camel Audio have said (in their thread about RE) that they would love to port Alchemy, but that the technology restricitions imposed by Popellerhead just don't make it possible at the moment....

When further asked if they would port their simpler plugs - CamelPhat and/or CamelSpace - they responded saying :

its not currently possible to port phat and space to RE with full functionality intact either.... it would require substantial recoding to work around the current restrictions, which is something we'd prefer to avoid

But there's a clear indication from them that they would love to put their stuff out in RE format if the Propellerhead technology catches up enough to make it possible.

[PB2000]

Ever thought that maybe the people with 20 hosts and 100's of VST's are not actually the people props are targeting with RE's?

I'd say they know their customer base quite well by now.

Maybe they are targeting people like my girlfriend who uses nothing but Reason, does not read forums, does not give a shit about VST's. She now has a way to purchase new synts/effect that work in the only way she know how to work.

This is a very valid point and one that I believe most are forgetting. Rack extensions are a very good thing for the industry and are not intended, currently, for those that have invested a lot of money in VST's.

Here's the key:

They don't want to support VST's because they don't like the way VST's work.


They've made that clear for years. Re's and VST's are different animals and it's up to us, the end user, to decide which route to take. The rationale for creating Re's is not even up for debate. They simply didn't like the way that they worked and, obviously, dedicated Reason users didn't either.

From what I'm concluding, there are a lot of people that want to work in Reason exclusively but have a large collection of VST's. I completely understand that. At this point, either the selection of Re's or the Reason environment doesn't fit their needs but maybe it will in the future when new devices and effects create something unattainable in other formats. Who knows?

Bottom line, a user is going to use what is comfortable to them and / or what fits their needs. None of it is right or wrong. Options are great, no?

I do feel for those that do have similar devices in VST that would like to crossgrade. I'm going to conclude, with the feedback I've seen, that this will be an option in the future as well as transferable licenses.

Keep in mind that this format is in its infancy and it will take time to implement certain aspects. It's that way for anything new with with this much logistics involved.

[mrdr]

Anosou, it would be nice to know whether Propellerheads change their no resale policy before end of Softube promotion and free Pulsar. You know, just in case:)

[PB2000]

Anosou, it would be nice to know whether Propellerheads change their no resale policy, before end of Softube promotion and free Pulsar. You know, just in case:)

I'm concluding that it's not that they don't want a user to be able to transfer licenses (resell Re's) but rather the infrastructure has taken a back seat due to more important issues at the moment. I would be surprised if this option is not available in the future. Not by the end of next month, but in the future.

However, I agree that an announcement one way or the other would help.

[kmonkey]

I just can't resist to point one thing out regarding fanboyism. As much as i hate it (no, not you exode) there is one ironic thing.

Over years i visited their forum several times asking for possibility or various ability which where available for long time ago in VST as plugins or other host applications. About 10 out of 10 times i was answered that Reason is already capable and that i don't need anything (exmaple Omnisphere, Reaktor, Zebra etc.) because my imagination is my only limit (which is partly true depending on what you want..example impulse based reverb is not possible, etc.etc.).

Now when Reason opened itself and when we see porting of these same effects and instruments to Reason suddenly everyone of them are excited and can't wait to see what is behind corner (me included)

It does remind me on situation when Apple and their army of fanboys claimed having better CPUs then PC dudes with Intel cpus then they
....switched to intel

[headquest]

Indeed. And not only the fanboys but Propellerhead themselves of course...