Tal J-8

[Amram]

delete

[alberto_balsalm]

Rather that software gets absolete/outdated pretty fast ( it is also a fast moving business) and is disposed of quickly.

I don't think it's entirely true nowadays, and same goes for computer hardware. Depends on how you define fast, of course. U-he is a good example for long term support. Zebra 2 is what, around 15 years old by now? And it still receives free updates, with some companies it would've been Zebra 9 at least. Diva has been around since 2011. All the major DAWs are still here by and large, the sole exception is maybe Sonar, but I'm not entirely sure what its state of development is (it is still available though, and it's free too nowadays).

The problem is that it's a pretty new industry, but we do start seeing certain outliers like u-he that are unlikely to go away anytime soon. Besides, what were the biggest problem with older synths? 32 bit only, and no hi-res monitor support. I'm pretty sure any relatively modern VST3 instrument will last for a really good while. It's kinda like computer hardware. In the 90s and even early 2000s your computer could get obsolete in a matter of months. Not really the case anymore, this kind of crazy obsolescence cycle is over from somewhere around early 2010s.

But the biggest argument is that the cost isn't even remotely comparable. Hardware synths are obscenely more expensive.

[e-crooner]

......

Well my last audio example posted clearly shows that they are not exactly thoroughly freerunning... That audio showcases exactly what's not possible on an analog synth. J-8 should not be able to do that if it is being called an emulation...

Again I love TAL stuff, but this is beyond weird.

Patrick did some tests again, and that is how his own is behaving.
It is a 14bit Jupiter if that makes a difference.

The instability is in the kHz range, very fast (you can see it with a frequency analyzer). I also think that both have the similar instabilities. Otherwise the VCO's are stable and don't drift. They are free running and they still have almost the same frequency after a few hours. Also didn't notice that the two can drift away from each other.

rsp

I would really really REALLY like to hear a counterexample from Patrick's own hardware. Can he really do exactly the same thing as in my audio? Namely:

1. Get osc 2 finetune to completely freeze the phases between the two oscillators
2. After achieving point 1, play multiple notes and have them sound exactly the same with exactly the same starting phases
3. Change finetune to some other value then back to frozen state, which would result in different phase offsets but again constant...


I just cannot believe this is true on the hardware.

That works exactly like when you take the init patch in Sylenth1, with both oscillators set to retrigger, then you slightly turn the phase knob of one of the two oscillators. That changes the sound character of the resulting global waveform, and it stays consistent across the keyboard, until you turn the phase knob again.

[e-crooner]

Never let people know which one is the hardware synth. Let them guess. Otherwise cognitive bias kicks in.

Not in this case, I can clearly hear a difference, and the first one sounds better to me. I am not in favor of either hardware or software, so I don't need to defend the hardware as you imply.

eh, somebody is clearly failing to understand how Cognitive Bias works. if the test isn't blind, it means nothing. simple as that. your assurance / opinion / confidence that "you can clearly hear a difference" doesn't mean anything to the rest of us (or to science, heh).

I have no bias because I couldn't care less whether the hardware or the software sounds better.
It is not one of those threads on whether or not plugin x sounds as authentically analog as a hardware synth.

The two audios clearly sound different at the beginning, and I prefer the way it is in audio 1, whether it is the software or hardware. I won't change my mind if the poster says that he mixed up the captions.

[EvilDragon]

That works exactly like when you take the init patch in Sylenth1, with both oscillators set to retrigger, then you slightly turn the phase knob of one of the two oscillators. That changes the sound character of the resulting global waveform, and it stays consistent across the keyboard, until you turn the phase knob again.

Sure but Sylenth1 is as VA as they come, it doesn't have a hardware counterpart. Have a play with some analog synths and try to do the same thing. My Neutron over here doesn't do that at all, it's impossible to tune it this dead on between two oscs, AND have the phase relationship stay the same between multiple played notes. Just isn't happening. In fact I haven't played on an analog synth on which this is possible.

[zvenx]

Even those with DCO's or you don't consider those real analogs?
rsp

[e-crooner]

That works exactly like when you take the init patch in Sylenth1, with both oscillators set to retrigger, then you slightly turn the phase knob of one of the two oscillators. That changes the sound character of the resulting global waveform, and it stays consistent across the keyboard, until you turn the phase knob again.

Sure but Sylenth1 is as VA as they come, it doesn't have a hardware counterpart. Have a play with some analog synths and try to do the same thing. My Neutron over here doesn't do that at all, it's impossible to tune it this dead on between two oscs, AND have the phase relationship stay the same between multiple played notes. Just isn't happening. In fact I haven't played on an analog synth on which this is possible.

That's the point. J-8 behaves like Sylenth1 with retrigger enabled. And it probably shouldn't.
Maybe Tal recycled some of the oscillator code from the U-NO-LX

[EvilDragon]

Even those with DCO's or you don't consider those real analogs?
rsp

DCOs don't work the same as VCOs. They're still analog but it's a different world (in most cases all the voices share the same crystal for clocking, which phase locks octaves and so on - stuff totally not happening on VCOs). DCOs shouldn't even be a point of discussion here because Jupiter 8 doesn't have them.

[zvenx]

Which is exactly why i asked.
I know this. you said you never saw this behaviour with analog synths.....which clearly can't be true unless you don't consider synths with DCO's real analog.

You brought up the NEutron which afaik is not a jupiter 8 clone.
Or it is only ok when you bring up unrelated stuff?
smh
rsp

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Ok, I think it's just a bug. Here, try this:

1. Load up J-8
2. Load the "Default" patch
3. Set the Fine Tune to 0
4. Play some notes

Result: static sounding. Ok, now...

5. Turn the osc blend knob right and left

Result: the sound of the osc changes. If they were perfectly in phase, I'm not sure I'd expect that to occur. Now, wait for it...

6. Turn Sync On

Result: Sound changes. Ok, now they're truly phase locked. Sound changed. As expected. Ready for the bug?

7. Turn Sync off

Result: no change at all. The oscillators remain completely phase locked as though sync was still on.

Definitely not what I'm expecting. Definitely points to a bug. Maybe there's a little creepy crawly bug that got into the code where the oscs were supposed to be free running and/or pitch drifty over time and they're starting out not perfectly in phase, but getting stuck there.

[EvilDragon]

Which is exactly why i asked.
I know this. you said you never saw this behaviour with analog synths.....which clearly can't be true unless you don't consider synths with DCO's real analog.

You brought up the NEutron which afaik is not a jupiter 8 clone.
Or it is only ok when you bring up unrelated stuff?
smh
rsp

I bring up the Neutron because it's a VCO analog! So it's related and I can confirm expected behavior on it.

I was missing "VCO" when I said I haven't played an analog that behaves like J-8.

[zvenx]

Ok, I think it's just a bug. Here, try this:

1. Load up J-8
2. Load the "Default" patch
3. Set the Fine Tune to 0
4. Play some notes

Result: static sounding. Ok, now...

5. Turn the osc blend knob right and left

Result: the sound of the osc changes. If they were perfectly in phase, I'm not sure I'd expect that to occur. Now, wait for it...

6. Turn Sync On

Result: Sound changes. Ok, now they're truly phase locked. Sound changed. As expected. Ready for the bug?



7. Turn Sync off

Result: no change at all. The oscillators remain completely phase locked as though sync was still on.

Definitely not what I'm expecting. Definitely points to a bug. Maybe there's a little creepy crawly bug that got into the code where the oscs were supposed to be free running and/or pitch drifty over time and they're starting out not perfectly in phase, but getting stuck there.

You could indeed be right.
rsp

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I'm not sure what we're arguing about though...there's certainly no way this behavior would occur on any analog synth and I think I've clearly demonstrated there's some kind of bug here. ED was spot on in calling it out first. Nothing to get defensive over. Shit happens. The synth still sounds great and will sound better once this is rectified. I just hope this doesn't go on for much longer because someone's "totally tight, punchy bass" patch might get a little less tight when it's fixed.

I'm sure it'll get fixed though.

[EvilDragon]

Can totally confirm that bug indeed.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

K, glad we're all on the same page. I hate when mom and dad fight!