Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

[shamann]

So to you, Mahler and Moby are equals?

So are you saying that one of them is inferior to the other? How do you come to this conclusion? Do you think old composers should be deified? On what grounds can you possibly justify this?

Also a strange choice to use Mahler as a point of comparison to Moby, considering he re-appropriated old folk tunes in much the same manner that Moby did with old American blues tunes. Just listen to the third movement of Mahler's first symphony. As well, I saw a performance Moby did (on TV, maybe the Grammies?) where all the old blues samples were replaced by live musicians, and it was in fact dreadful by comparison to the original track using sampled loops.

[dystonia_ek]

Why not just do what you like without obsessing about what everyone else does?

[munchkin]

on what fantasy island would a scenario like that occur?
do you honestly believe that it's possible to make a track out of pre-made loops whilst turning the mute button on and off and have it sound like something more than a bunch of loops going on and off?

maybe I'm taking crazy pills but I think if that awesome guitar riff kept repeating with no variance I would start to catch on that it was a loop.

Ahhh, but then we'd be talking about good and bad ways to use loops, and as we all have seen and heard, there are some very uncreative "looptists" out there who, really just don't know any better or can't do anything else other than matching BPM and pitch and turn mute on and off. I remember when Acid first came out, all of a sudden everyone was a musician and composer, and mp3.com was filled with all kinds of crap. I don't think people are that clueless about loops anymore today, but those days of early Acid users left a horrible impression on me and caused me to not like loops. They were the culprits.

You're welcome to your preferences in music (as we all are) but when you write off developing musicians, as you do in the above statement, the culprit, unfortunately, is your own elitist attitude.

[Hink]

Why not just do what you like without obsessing about what everyone else does?

cause that would make sense... You know I wonder is how it matters too. When you think about it a lot of the people who just program music will end up getting a controller maybe picking up a cheap guitar whatever. But I wouldn't be surprised if many of the strict computer musicians (and yes imo we are all musicians if we are creating music) will soon want to explore and/or suddenly realise oneday (this happened to me tbh) as they are using their controller "hey I can play keyboards".

I am very happy having one foot firmly placed on each plane. Why limit myself? Both offer myriad of music paths to explore. Both offer great artistic expression for me and combined it's pure bliss.

[opiadream]

on what fantasy island would a scenario like that occur?
do you honestly believe that it's possible to make a track out of pre-made loops whilst turning the mute button on and off and have it sound like something more than a bunch of loops going on and off?

maybe I'm taking crazy pills but I think if that awesome guitar riff kept repeating with no variance I would start to catch on that it was a loop.

Ahhh, but then we'd be talking about good and bad ways to use loops, and as we all have seen and heard, there are some very uncreative "looptists" out there who, really just don't know any better or can't do anything else other than matching BPM and pitch and turn mute on and off. I remember when Acid first came out, all of a sudden everyone was a musician and composer, and mp3.com was filled with all kinds of crap. I don't think people are that clueless about loops anymore today, but those days of early Acid users left a horrible impression on me and caused me to not like loops. They were the culprits.

I remember those days
and yea,it did sour me on visiting places like mp3.com
Too much time spent sifting thru crap
But like I said before,I doubt many people are going to listen to it and be fooled into thinking it was made by some great musician whom they would compliment if they met them in person.
I doubt very many people were fooled back then either
Most probably like me thay thought to themselves
'Gad this is some repetitive crap.Do these people even know how to play an instrument?'

..and remember
'loops don't make crap music
people do'

[Lunatique]

You're welcome to your preferences in music (as we all are) but when you write off developing musicians, as you do in the above statement, the culprit, unfortunately, is your own elitist attitude.

I'm not writing them off, I just think they were a bit misguided. Developing musicians should be learning their scales, chords, harmony, time signatures..etc, not pasting together loops. I would've been fine with the whole thing if their songs contained anything they recorded on their own, but unfortunately back then, many of those mp3.com stuff were nothing but loops thrown together. It's like some of the so-called "digital artists" these days do nothing but take photos and smudge/filter them in Photoshop or Painter, and then try to pass them off as original paintings. What they should be doing is learning color theory, composition, anatomy, perspective, values, contrast, edge quality..etc.

This discussion could go on forever because everything about is subjective. It's like trying to argue about the merits of abstract expressionism or whether Picasso and Van Gough should be respected more than Sargent and Bouguereau. All we can do is offer our personal opinions, and maybe in the process help others understand the disposition of the other side of the fence. That's why we have these discussions, no?

[quincy]

I'm extremely drunk so i can be even more blunt than usual.

Its no-ones f**king business how other people make music, if they get pleasure out of it and maybe give pleasure to someone else with the music they make then everyone else can f**k off.

All the musical snobs who think they are better than everyone else can go shove it up their asses and like it.

Do what you want, sod what everyone else thinks. This can be applied to most thing in life.

This was a battered quincy broadcast

[Lunch Money]

All the musical snobs who think they are better than everyone else can go shove it up their asses and like it.

Hey, they can shove it up their asses, but I don't think we can make any promises about whether or not they enjoy the sensation.

Greg

[pHz]

I'm not writing them off, I just think they were a bit misguided. Developing musicians should be learning their scales, chords, harmony, time signatures..etc, not pasting together loops. I would've been fine with the whole thing if their songs contained anything they recorded on their own, but unfortunately back then, many of those mp3.com stuff were nothing but loops thrown together. It's like some of the so-called "digital artists" these days do nothing but take photos and smudge/filter them in Photoshop or Painter, and then try to pass them off as original paintings. What they should be doing is learning color theory, composition, anatomy, perspective, values, contrast, edge quality..etc.

...

slainte rob

[stefancrs]

I'm not writing them off, I just think they were a bit misguided. Developing musicians should be learning their scales, chords, harmony, time signatures..etc, not pasting together loops. I would've been fine with the whole thing if their songs contained anything they recorded on their own, but unfortunately back then, many of those mp3.com stuff were nothing but loops thrown together. It's like some of the so-called "digital artists" these days do nothing but take photos and smudge/filter them in Photoshop or Painter, and then try to pass them off as original paintings. What they should be doing is learning color theory, composition, anatomy, perspective, values, contrast, edge quality..etc.

...

slainte rob

Don't worry, he's probably < 15cm and makes crappy arts and music!

[Hovmod]

Also a strange choice to use Mahler as a point of comparison to Moby, considering he re-appropriated old folk tunes in much the same manner that Moby did with old American blues tunes.

I chose Mahler *because* he quotes other music a lot (other contemporary composers more than folk-tunes, btw) and many concidered him a thief, yet he made highly original music that still captivates you and blows your mind. (*edit* and many of his sources are forgotten...)

We're all too myopic to have an opinion about the importance of today's music anyway. It's cool NOW. When the history of 20th century music is taught in high school in 2105, and only one of them, Moby or Mahler, is mentioned in the text books, my money is on Mahler. (I can't remember if Moby's big break was on this side of the millennium, but you get my point, right?)

Anyway, if this is about whether or not you are allowed to make or enjoy music made with loops, I don't have a problem with it. I think Moby Dick is better than the DaVinci code, but I read both. I think Tarkovskij made better movies than the Cohen brothers. But I enjoy both. I hardly feel snobbish, because I don't wear a tie when I go to classical concerts, and Mahler and Mozart are next to Motorpsycho and Motorhead and Moby in my CD collection.

I have an open mind about it, but I don't kid myself about the "artistic value" of everything I enjoy.

[Sascha Franck]

Amen, Hovmod!

[snooky]

I hate that everyone can be an "artist" with the help of computers...making movies and music and artyfartsy shite...we should have some kind of gentic test to determine if an induvidual is gifted enought to engage in art. Only then would that person be allowed to fill the world with his/hers work.

Should eliminate most of the crap that we must wade thru...disgusting"

[AndreasE]

A music-producer produces music which normally is composed and played by other musicians, not by the producer himself.

My hobby is producing/composing music with the computer, and my instruments and musicians are soft-synths and also (since some weeks) commercial loops and samples. I don´t construct real instruments myself, nor do I develop soft-synths, nor do I often make my own loops, nor do I play real instruments. I only see myself as producer/composer/arranger and my only target is to make good music that I like and hopefully some other people, too. How this music was produced - is this really so important? Not for me.

[nuffink]

I hate that everyone can be an "artist" with the help of computers...making movies and music and artyfartsy shite...we should have some kind of gentic test to determine if an induvidual is gifted enought to engage in art. Only then would that person be allowed to fill the world with his/hers work.

Should eliminate most of the crap that we must wade thru...disgusting"

I agree. Art should only be made by artists like you.
Everyone else should be prevented, by force if necessary.

Strangely I can't seem to find a link to your art.