Do you have to play an instrument?

[tetraplan]

I don't think one can play a chord with a mouse, or use portamento, or have the fun of sliding ones fingers across a ribbon and modulating all kinds of parameters in real time while playing notes with the other hand, and maybe using both feet at the same time. Not saying its necessary, but I need to be able to do that. I mouse in notes too every not and then, especially for rhythm parts and sequenced sections, but in the end, even though I don't play really well, I like the tactility that my keyboard gives me

Well, as the funkiest of the funkiest once said:
Different strokes for different folks.
And so on, and so on.
And skooby-dooby-doo.

Groet, Erik

[progfusion74]

I don't think one can play a chord with a mouse, or use portamento, or have the fun of sliding ones fingers across a ribbon and modulating all kinds of parameters in real time while playing notes with the other hand, and maybe using both feet at the same time. Not saying its necessary, but I need to be able to do that. I mouse in notes too every not and then, especially for rhythm parts and sequenced sections, but in the end, even though I don't play really well, I like the tactility that my keyboard gives me

Well, as the funkiest of the funkiest once said:
Different strokes for different folks.
And so on, and so on.
And skooby-dooby-doo.

Groet, Erik

Won't disagree there.

[pHz]

I don't think one can play a chord with a mouse, or use portamento, or have the fun of sliding ones fingers across a ribbon and modulating all kinds of parameters in real time while playing notes with the other hand, and maybe using both feet at the same time. Not saying its necessary, but I need to be able to do that. I mouse in notes too every not and then, especially for rhythm parts and sequenced sections, but in the end, even though I don't play really well, I like the tactility that my keyboard gives me

this is another crux of the 'argument' here i think ...

... some people are trying to apply the characteristics and 'feel' of other (traditional) instruments to their concept of the PC as an instrument ...

... to someone who views their computer as such the concept of playing a chord or using portamento will NOT rely on the use of a (piano) keyboard - they will do those things in other ways that may well be AS COMFORTABLE to them as using a controller keyboard is to you

slainte rob

[progfusion74]

But are you happy with that method? Is it all it can be? Do you feel satisfied with that method or do you wish for something better? Making music with a mouse is like swimming while wearing blue jeans. It can be done, but if you ever swam with swimming trucks then the blue jeans suddenly feel restrictive.
Robert

again agreed ...

... but then people were quite happy playing hollow logs and not complaining that they didnt have a more expressive set of pearl forums (or whatever) to play ...

slainte rob

Are you saying that we are going backwards now .. just kidding .. music and instruments evolve. What I fear is that today, as easy as it is for people to make music, people are losing respect for the art itself. An instrument is as much part of the music as the music itself, and there seems almost to be a concious effort for instant gratification as opposed to the hard work that it takes to master anything.

I can't believe I wrote that makes me sound like an old fuddy duddy


I don't think being a master is necessary, but appreciating the artform is never a bad thing .. YMMV

[pHz]

Of course, with Ableton Live some one has to play sections of the music ahead of time, record it, and transform it into a loops or one shots. Then a second, ummm, musician?, can press keys on the computer keyboard and play those loops back in real time.
Robert

I don't see a problem with that.
Besides, more often than not, the musician creating the loops is the same person that triggers/mutilates them in Ableton.
Groet, Erik

and pianos need tuning ahead of playing ...

... guitarists need to tune their guitars and set up their effects pedal chains ahead of playing ...

... etc

slainte rob

[progfusion74]

I do agree that when it comes to loops, a traditional instrument is not necessary. That's a completely different beast.


And if you can get feel out of a mouse you're a better person than I .. I'd miss the aftertouch

[pHz]

Are you saying that we are going backwards now .. just kidding .. music and instruments evolve. What I fear is that today, as easy as it is for people to make music, people are losing respect for the art itself. An instrument is as much part of the music as the music itself, and there seems almost to be a concious effort for instant gratification as opposed to the hard work that it takes to master anything. I can't believe I wrote that makes me sound like an old fuddy duddy

interesting how often this viewpoint turns up throughout history in all sorts of contexts (especially since the industrial revolution) ... invention of the steam engine ... appearance of the camera ... development of the automobile ... invention of the vinyl record ... invention of the sampler ...

... everything still rolls on regardless - people still paint on canvas ... musicians still play live ... guitars and drums and pianos are still being made ...

... theres room for everything - acceptance is the hard part i guess ...

slainte rob

[pHz]

I do agree that when it comes to loops, a traditional instrument is not necessary. That's a completely different beast.

getting sidetracked if we go down this route ... yeah live uses loops (though doesnt HAVE to) but its the concept of then using the PC running live as the instrument playing and MANIPULATING those loops thats important here i think ... compare this scenario to playing a korg triton or some other sample based keyboard ...

And if you can get feel out of a mouse you're a better person than I .. I'd miss the aftertouch

heehee

slainte rob

[Rabid]

But are you happy with that method? Is it all it can be? Do you feel satisfied with that method or do you wish for something better? Making music with a mouse is like swimming while wearing blue jeans. It can be done, but if you ever swam with swimming trucks then the blue jeans suddenly feel restrictive.
Robert

again agreed ...

... but then people were quite happy playing hollow logs and not complaining that they didnt have a more expressive set of pearl forums (or whatever) to play ...

slainte rob

heh heh. You know what, my first set of drums, if you could call them that, was a collection of plastic food containers spread across my bed. One had pennies in it for a snare effect. To be honest, I enjoyed those plastic drums more than most of the keyboards released between 1985 and 2000. I thought keyboards of that time lacked any real time expressive features that could compete with a guitar or sax.

Luckily, keyboards have improved lately and so will methods of making music on computers. Yes, as I said before, a computer is an instrument. But so is the XV-5080 in my rack. But it is the interface that will make me happy. Those too are getting better, and programmers are giving us more ways to express emotion with the current lot of VSTi's. 15 years ago I would have traded everything for a program like z3ta+ or Emulator X.

Currently, I consider my Roland Fantom to be my instrument and my computer is a vast sound module. The best sound module I have ever owned. But it is the Fantom with the joy stick that I love, the keys with quick response, and the set of knobs and buttons that sends CC data to VSTi's that I really play.

But that's just me and I want it all. That is why a lot of my songs start on the lap top with only a mouse, but then move to the DAW with the Fantom attached.

Robert

[jens]

Of course, with Ableton Live some one has to play sections of the music ahead of time, record it, and transform it into a loops or one shots. Then a second, ummm, musician?, can press keys on the computer keyboard and play those loops back in real time.

Robert

then let's take Arturia's Storm - you can make music with it in realtime without using any samples and without controlling it with anything else than a mouse/computer-keyboard´:razz:

[whyterabbyt]

Rabid quoth
Ahhh, but I never said knowledge had to be traditional western composition.

It was kind of implied though, when you talked about 'musical geniuses of the past 500 years' though.

It does not even mean the ability to read music. If a painter never takes the time to learn how to mix colors then that painter will be stuck using only colors that can be easily purchased.

Not true. Mixable colours is an innate property of the medium, whether or not one has learned a system or methodology of doing so.

If a musician has never been exposed to alternate tunings, then that musician’s music will be limited to diatonic and close variants.

Not necessarily. If one has never been exposed to any tunings, then one would not expect that diatonic tunings were their first choice, unless something else forced that upon them.

If you have never made a sax growl or held a guitar in your hand while controlling feedback then you will never know what you are missing when sitting at a computer clicking notes onto a piano roll.

And? If you have never controlled multiple parallel granular feedback delays using a joystick controller, then you will never know what you are missing widdling strings on your guitar or huffing and puffing into your sax.

There is nothing intriniscally 'superior' to any of them, though.


Of course you can always use audio loops created by someone else to add life to the music.

Are you implying that that is an inherent property of all music created by musicians who choose not to pursue any traditional musical knowledge or methodologies? That musical 'life' cannot be innately discovered? If so, where did it actually come from?

[tetraplan]

I do agree that when it comes to loops, a traditional instrument is not necessary. That's a completely different beast.


And if you can get feel out of a mouse you're a better person than I .. I'd miss the aftertouch

There's more to it than loops.
Often, when I play droney bits with my Waldorf Pulse, I get the feeling there are too many keys on my controller. An on/off button would have done (1).
I've encountered similar situations when playing the computer, only the soundsource used (AudioMulch's 10Harmonics) is "always on", so that wasn't an issue.

Groet, Erik

(1) The Law-Rah Collective solves this by taping down his keys. At first, I wondered what this "rrr-click" sound was. It was very funny to watch. Low-tech sequencing.

[Rabid]

and pianos need tuning ahead of playing ...

... guitarists need to tune their guitars and set up their effects pedal chains ahead of playing ...

... etc

slainte rob

Oh come on Rob. Surely you are not going to equate tuning an instrument to recording an instrument ahead of time and creating loops. You can debate at a much higher level than that. Take it back and start over.

Robert

[pHz]

then let's take Arturia's Storm - you can make music with it in realtime without using any samples and without controlling it with anything else than a mouse/computer-keyboard´:razz:

sure you CAN ... but why would you want to ???

its SHITE

slainte rob

[pHz]

Oh come on Rob. Surely you are not going to equate tuning an instrument to recording an instrument ahead of time and creating loops. You can debate at a much higher level than that. Take it back and start over.
Robert

not equating as such ...

... just trying to point out that you can seperate out the preparation of an instrument for performance from the actual performing with it ...

... and you dont NEED to use loops in live (not any more anyway)

slainte rob