Why you left Bitwig?

[pdxindy]

For example, modulate a parameter and then you cannot tweak the parameter itself any more. Bitwig you can..

I forgot to answer this one but yes, you can tweak the parameter in Ableton but you need a slight workaround.

What is the work around?? Hopefully not toooo complicated!

The workaround pretty much sucks. It’s kinda passable for a single parameter but I regularly have a dozen or more parameters modulated and then it is unusable (at least for me)

Modulation in Live is clumsy. My solution over time was I just stopped using it and used VST’s with enough modulation options that I could avoid Lives modulation.

The in Live you have something like Modulat. A commercial effort to overcome the fundamental limitations of Live. The Devs did a great job with it, but basically it is another layer of complexity trying to overcome the limitations of the core application while still being subject to them. It’s still not an integrated system like Bitwig which has lots of advantages both in functionality and workflow.

different people have different workflow thresholds. One person may be fine with modulation in Live and another like myself finds it tedious and uninspiring. If something is uninspiring, I’ll eventually stop using it. Your mileage may vary.

[Biscotto]

For example, modulate a parameter and then you cannot tweak the parameter itself any more. Bitwig you can..

I forgot to answer this one but yes, you can tweak the parameter in Ableton but you need a slight workaround.

What is the work around?? Hopefully not toooo complicated!

The workaround pretty much sucks. It’s kinda passable for a single parameter but I regularly have a dozen or more parameters modulated and then it is unusable (at least for me)

Modulation in Live is clumsy. My solution over time was I just stopped using it and used VST’s with enough modulation options that I could avoid Lives modulation.

The in Live you have something like Modulat. A commercial effort to overcome the fundamental limitations of Live. The Devs did a great job with it, but basically it is another layer of complexity trying to overcome the limitations of the core application while still being subject to them. It’s still not an integrated system like Bitwig which has lots of advantages both in functionality and workflow.

different people have different workflow thresholds. One person may be fine with modulation in Live and another like myself finds it tedious and uninspiring. If something is uninspiring, I’ll eventually stop using it. Your mileage may vary.

For sure it is not near the simplicity of BWS The point is that it can be done and your point is that it sucks and if you use it as a main source of sound design and clearly as a workflow, sure it’s then a PITA
They are Global and can modulate things outside the track (other instruments and effects in perfect sync with other elements anywhere; better exploit with Modulat in that case) and even mixer element and in that respect they open different possibilities.
That is why I requested a modulation receiver in BWS to lift the “track only” modulation limitation.

One thing I would love to see from both DAW is the ability to record the modulations as an automation to the fine tune or modify in the timeline when needed.

[antic604]

They are Global and can modulate things outside the track (other instruments and effects in perfect sync with other elements anywhere; better exploit with Modulat in that case) and even mixer element and in that respect they open different possibilities. That is why I requested a modulation receiver in BWS to lift the “track only” modulation limitation.

How often do you really NEED it in practice? My tracks are HEAVY with modulation and I don't think I ever needed that. Sure I'd probably use it if it was there, but I never needed it.

One thing I would love to see from both DAW is the ability to record the modulations as an automation to the fine tune or modify in the timeline when needed.

You actually can in Bitwig:

• add an instrument track with DC Offset inside of Instrument Layer
• modulate the DC Offset's bar with modulation you want saved (LFO, Steps, etc)
• select time on that track and bounce-in-place it which will capture the audio generated by DC Offset - you now have an audio clip with rendered modulation!
• disable the Instrument Layer so it doesn't generate signal anymore
• on the target track use Audio Rate modulator listening to the track / clip you've rendered above to modulate other parameter(s)
• since the original modulation is now an audio clip, you can slice it, stretch it, reverse it, put audio FX on it (compressor, distortion / saturator, delay, reverb, etc.), etc. for even more creative fun
• and obviously you can listen to the same captured modulation from several tracks = global modulation

[Biscotto]

They are Global and can modulate things outside the track (other instruments and effects in perfect sync with other elements anywhere; better exploit with Modulat in that case) and even mixer element and in that respect they open different possibilities. That is why I requested a modulation receiver in BWS to lift the “track only” modulation limitation.

How often do you really NEED it in practice? My tracks are HEAVY with modulation and I don't think I ever needed that. Sure I'd probably use it if it was there, but I never needed it.

One thing I would love to see from both DAW is the ability to record the modulations as an automation to the fine tune or modify in the timeline when needed.

You actually can in Bitwig:

• add an instrument track with DC Offset inside of Instrument Layer
• modulate the DC Offset's bar with modulation you want saved (LFO, Steps, etc)
• select time on that track and bounce-in-place it which will capture the audio generated by DC Offset - you now have an audio clip with rendered modulation!
• disable the Instrument Layer so it doesn't generate signal anymore
• on the target track use Audio Rate modulator listening to the track / clip you've rendered above to modulate other parameter(s)
• since the original modulation is now an audio clip, you can slice it, stretch it, reverse it, put audio FX on it (compressor, distortion / saturator, delay, reverb, etc.), etc. for even more creative fun
• and obviously you can listen to the same captured modulation from several tracks = global modulation

antic... we went through that you and I and it’s not practical at all especially when the parameters are not scalable etc.
BWS can do it (If there is enough calls for it).

One thing that I use consistently in my music it’s Simpler and the slicing feature AND the sensitivity dial. Now, that sensitivity dial it’s not available for modulation and I’m sure that the way BWS it’s designed, they could do it (slicing and sensitivity modulations) and that would really create a dilemma for me....

The Global thing you saying are rarely used it’s like the thousands of phenomenal track made without (or rarely used in the DAW) modulations whatsoever.

Its very relative. But you should try and stretch your creativity in implementing it and see your personal results.

If you, for example create a global modulation chain for a certain zone of your track, you are able to control the whole chain with a single dial from volume mixes to sends and internal parameters in as many VST you intend to orchestrate together for a specific outcome. Rarely? Perhaps but very powerful and mind bending due to the complexity involved that grows exponentially.

In Modulat you can assign specific components after the main modulation source which they can individually (under a single main control) play the rest of the chain with variations based on a host of factors.
This is not on a track level, it’s at the DAW level. Very powerful if you are willing to purchase an extra tool such as Modulat.

I’m learning as I go because as I said, I use virtually little modulations in my music beside the ones in the VST.

BWS is the king of modulations (MuLab it’s a beast as well but not approachable as BWS).

If that’s your style of working then there is no point going to Ableton.
Workflow for me it’s King. Of course, personal workflow.

Edit: for example, in the last 4 months I finished two tracks and no modulations whatsoever. But tons of Simpler usage.

I see Logic finally as a Simpler version and clips (no action yet IFAIK) but I can’t get used to the workflow and it’s such a great daw!

Ok 6 pages of Biscotto. That’s it!

[antic604]

antic... we went through that you and I and it’s not practical at all especially when the parameters are not scalable etc.

I don't know what you mean by "scalable" in this context?

Also, you can do global modulation in Bitwig using MIDI CC device as a source and Note Receivers + MIDI modulators as receivers. Here's an example, with added bonus of global LFO modulating send level on percussions track:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17kBwP7 ... sp=sharing

Sure, it's not as easy as Modulat, but to get all of that you need $749 for Live Suite and $99 for Modulat, vs. "just" $349 for Bitwig

[Biscotto]

Money money money....
For some yes for others, thank God no.

Your Global workaround it’s a no no.
My workaround for modulations fine tuning after assignments to pdxindy, as he commented, sucks (and he’s correct).

I check my music first and look for a DAW that delivers that which my music needs.
Honestly I hate workarounds (who doesn’t).
Thankfully I’m an easy user and my main focus is on execution speed. Ableton is my friend.
I spend most of my free time on the piano and that’s where I spent my money (Fazioli -my daily teacher!) so a DAW cost or annual fee it’s not the focus.

We don’t agree in this DAW world but I’m sure we could jam and agree so we’ll.

Farewell antic.
This time I’m out.

[antic604]

Farewell antic.
This time I’m out.

Well, I'm the last to mention money, but they do matter for many.

Also, I wouldn't call any of what I described workarounds - they're core to Bitwig's functionality and design principles. Sure, they're not as easy as Modulat, but once you understand what you're doing and why it's a breeze to setup.

But I agree that workflow is king, which is why I choose Bitwig because perhaps I will waste few more minutes on setting global modulation vs. Live, but I'll save 10x that elsewhere

[EnGee]

I left Bitwig but I'm still looking behind Anyway, for me Live was a hair above Bitwig especially when using Push 2. I use Rewire sometimes but this is not the main reason. I think the main reason is I just feel more comfortable with Live. I don't use MPE and not crazy about modulators outside the synths. It also seems less expensive in the long run if Live spend 5 years or more to upgrade to major version.

I'm pressing on myself to use just one main full version DAW and concentrate on music making not tools. Anyway, I still have intro versions of other DAWs (except Reaper and FLS), but I just use Studio One Artist and Cubase Elements sometimes.

So, i didn't really burn the bridges (or ships!). I might buy a license again and be like before (using a different DAW everyday ).

[liquidsound]

(MuLab it’s a beast as well but not approachable as BWS)

I don't know if you are aware, I saw you at the MuLab forum once or twice, but MuLab it's getting a Clip launcher in the near future, just in case you still in the Clip and Modulation game.
I'm an earlier user of MuLab and I also use BTW.

I like BWS for the way the Modulation is implemented, but the workflow for me is not as fast as in Ableton, but since I'm not such an "Audio" composition guy, Ableton is not longer relevant (I used it a lot long ago and I did upgrade as well... I keep everything current) and BWS is more fun and powerful in sound design.
The problem with BWS is the ability to use those Mod tools way too easily and, for me, to get lost in an endless canvas of sounds... (Busy playing, posting little )

MuLab is incredibly powerful when it comes to Modulation and the creation of self contained devices (Control panels etc.) but the power is slightly hidden in sub levels and not in your face like BWS.
MuLab is still my main DAW.

No, I din't leave BWS but I'm not in it 100% yet.
Good luck man.

[xbitz]

just tried Reaktor as a modulator in Cubase and at least one instance doesn't crash C instantly (as S1 does it) routing is comfier than Logic has

and because Cubase is a pretty good DAW otherwise it seems a useful combo to me + Freestyle as a must-have one

[EnGee]

I hate to say it, but in my case, there is a problem in midi, in both Bitwig and Live. I have the same problem when sending midi msgs from my MODX keyboard. Some notes don't play although I see the midi signal!
It's tricky though. It doesn't happen with all VSTi. I wrote to Ableton's support but I don't think they can help immediately as it seems not easy bug.

I tried the same configuration with Cubase, Studio One and Samplitude (which impressed me a lot) and there is no problem at all. Damn! Just when I thought I have settled with Live/Push!

Anyway, I'll give it sometime and see as there is no perfect DAW that can do everything I want flawlessly! My first criteria is playing well with my MODX and easy to configure. Strangely Samplitude seems the best here. MIDI is easy and excellent with MODX!

[liquidsound]

just tried Reaktor as a modulator in Cubase and at least one instance doesn't crash C instantly (as S1 does it) routing is comfier than Logic has

and because Cubase is a pretty good DAW otherwise it seems a useful combo to me + Freestyle as a must-have one

Do you ever get a night of sleep?
Interesting stuff. One day I’ll dive into Reaktor.
I’ve being reading this thread and I purchase Modulat.
Insane! Now I’m going into a dilemma mode between MUX, BWS and M4L and your videos

[xbitz]

^^ Reaktor Blocks is the easiest to use IMO https://www.native-instruments.com/en/p ... -6/blocks/ worth to check it, created a video about the whole picture

hard to stop the playing with it so seems working Cubase has a very good score editor (trance uses mainly thirds and fifths they can be seen perfectly with it) chords can be chopped with Nora, modulation can be done with Freestyle and Reaktor, hope it helps to choose(as it can be seen on the video Reaktor only with CV modulation/shaping blocks needs around 3% CPU on an old 2015 mac so it seems viable )

[liquidsound]

No Cubase but Studio One from the v1.0 and upgrading to v5.0 and the integrated score editor.
I use Modulations but I feel they are overrated but can be useful at times and definitely fun with endless explorations with the inevitable result of neglecting the actual reason of having a DAW... COMPOSING (& Finishing a Track)!!!

[xbitz]

^^^ I have similar crashing experiences with S1v5 like https://answers.presonus.com/55501/stil ... e-update-5 on mac, don't like it