Analog or digital ?

[eduardo_b]

The ultimate audio filter is called perception.

**scratches chin** Actually, that's quite profound.

Alternatively, there's misperception.

They are the same thing

They can be the same thing, but they are not necessarily synonymous.

[eduardo_b]

Hmmm, I think this sort of debate is healthy for the minds... as long as people don't lose their tempers over it.

It's not the disagreements, it's the lack of respect for other points of view. It's one thing to say I don't agree, another to say the other person doesn't know what they're talking about...or worse. These two might seem like they are the same, but one is a discussion and the other is a personal attack. It changes from a discussion/debate to a downward spiral of irrelevant remarks and name-calling. It's worst when combined with narcissistic self-righteousness -- something I experienced in another thread just this week. As if one has to be right and the other wrong. Even the co-existence of two opinions is unacceptable. Courtesy seems beyond some people...and where did that come from?

[pdxindy]

The ultimate audio filter is called perception.

**scratches chin** Actually, that's quite profound.

Alternatively, there's misperception.

They are the same thing

They can be the same thing, but they are not necessarily synonymous.

The ear can only hear a certain range of frequencies and with a particular frequency response. The ears can only misperceive. We need not even go into all the complex interpretations the mind makes which color the already misperceived signal from the ears.

The only thing you can say is that by some arbitrary measure there are varying degrees of misperception

[eduardo_b]

The ultimate audio filter is called perception.

**scratches chin** Actually, that's quite profound.

Alternatively, there's misperception.

They are the same thing

They can be the same thing, but they are not necessarily synonymous.

The ear can only hear a certain range of frequencies and with a particular frequency response. The ears can only misperceive. We need not even go into all the complex interpretations the mind makes which color the already misperceived signal from the ears.

The only thing you can say is that by some arbitrary measure there are varying degrees of misperception

Well, I was thinking in more general terms, but I don't agree that the ears can only misperceive. The limitations of hearing as you note them do not prevent the enjoyment of sound and music.

What is true is that our ears do not discern a lot of artifacts and imperfections in sound that are there. But if you don't notice them, how would it matter. I don't think any listeners (not musicians), for example, can detect a soft synth from a hardware synth -- analogue, digital or hybrid of the two.

[pdxindy]

**scratches chin** Actually, that's quite profound.

Alternatively, there's misperception.

They are the same thing

They can be the same thing, but they are not necessarily synonymous.

The ear can only hear a certain range of frequencies and with a particular frequency response. The ears can only misperceive. We need not even go into all the complex interpretations the mind makes which color the already misperceived signal from the ears.

The only thing you can say is that by some arbitrary measure there are varying degrees of misperception

Well, I was thinking in more general terms, but I don't agree that the ears can only misperceive. The limitations of hearing as you note them do not prevent the enjoyment of sound and music.

Of course, it is quite possible to enjoy ones misperception... and suffer from it as well.

What is true is that our ears do not discern a lot of artifacts and imperfections in sound that are there. But if you don't notice them, how would it matter. I don't think any listeners (not musicians), for example, can detect a soft synth from a hardware synth -- analogue, digital or hybrid of the two.

My observation is that humans perceive the imperfections far better than the perfection... hehehe (and of course the idea of something being perfect or imperfect is one of those distortions added by the mind)

[jancivil]

The ultimate audio filter is called perception.

**scratches chin** Actually, that's quite profound.

Alternatively, there's misperception.

They are the same thing

They can be the same thing, but they are not necessarily synonymous.

The ear can only hear a certain range of frequencies and with a particular frequency response. The ears can only misperceive. We need not even go into all the complex interpretations the mind makes which color the already misperceived signal from the ears.

The only thing you can say is that by some arbitrary measure there are varying degrees of misperception

So. The Ear - the human Auditory Organ - can only hear what is Audible, so it's a faulty organ?; which is what you are saying by saying its perceptions are faulty per se.

Seriously? If it's true, how is it also true that the measure of 'how faulty' is arbitrary?

and:

If there is a 'true' perception, what meaning, what reality does that have?

[zerocrossing]

In addition, although probably to a lesser degree, you'll see those who have assumed a staunch pro-software stance also seek to justify that investment - not really a financial one, but an (empty and pointless) "ideological" investment.

Who does that? My guess would be... no one. If someone made an analog synth that was the size of a MoPho that cost in the neighborhood of $200 and had the capabilities of Zebra 2 we'd all own a dozen.

People use software because it's easy to work with, low maintenance and inexpensive. Ideology? No.

The reason I'm following this thread is not because I care at all about analog or digital. I'm interested because Synth Squad was hyped as "the answer." The software that "finally did it right." The answer I'm looking for is the answer to the question, "did what right?" The demo tracks show nothing that hasn't been done by the usual suspects. I listened to a commercial preset bank for Zebra today that sounded way more interesting to me.

But what do I know? I like the sound of the only analog VA modeler the MoPHo.

[eduardo_b]

People use software because it's easy to work with, low maintenance and inexpensive. Ideology? No.

This is my favorite approach to life -- pragmatism. What's not to love about soft synths? I appreciate the qualities of vintage hardware (got plenty of 70s albums to prove it) but cannot imagine actually spending that much money, space, time and effort. I can live with whatever sonic differences there are, as if my audio memory would even know. The issue isn't that one side is right and the other is wrong. It's that neither is wrong. Buy what you want, play what you want. Everyone wins.

[zerocrossing]

The ears can only misperceive.

Ears do no perception at all. They are only imperfect transducers. It's your brain that does the conversion and perception. Your brain is easily tricked by many factors.

[jancivil]

I have no ideological investment. If I had our old Minimoog, I'd record it. Period. It's going to sound better than most emus. But not in every case.

I am thinking of buying two Revox A or B-77s to do the old Eno/Fripp number on it, because it hasn't been emulated well at all, afaik, and I've looked.

But, I bought VSL Overdrive Guitar for less than a couple hundred bucks, and it beats the shit out of setting up the same exact set up unless I HAVE to have the personality of my own fingers on actual strings, which for 95% of what I use that sound for I don't require.

To say that, someone else is making an argument based on ideology or money, sounds kinda like projection to me, tbh.

I think to insist that analog has some magical shimmer which can't be modeled yet or hasn't, is - to me demonstrably - false. It may be that in most cases, there is failure. When someone extrapolates from that something which is more than that, I am suspicious.

[WMP]

If you have NEVER really used... and I mean used for a week longf session getting to know the kit....if you have never used great analog kit then you won't miss it, and you won't know what the very rare few of us are going on about on this forum..

THIS is the kind of stateent that pisses me off in these threads.

how do you know what i own, or indeed what i have access to?
as for your 21 years using butter, so, ive been using butter, cream and so on for about the same amount of time, now its time for icing sugar



nostalgia is great, and i cant wait till im older so i can get some

But Vurt I never said this to you. The word that I used was 'if'... meaning 'if' you have never used good analog kit befor but you obviously have used good analog kit before so my point is obviously not aimed at you.

Like I have said a lot... it is of course down to personal preference.

I have never said that the actual sound of one synth is 'better' than any other...there are things my Virus Ti can do that my analogs couldn't dream of.

It is when vsti's venture into analog sound territory that I find them lacking. To my ears with a side by side like for like i.e emu vs real the emu's will always sound harsh, thin or over hyped.

And it also depends on the tyoe of music you produce and to be honest what level. If you've just got into the audio world then having all that nice gear won't really make that much difference....to a noobey's ears the Minimonsta sounds just like those old records....only it doesn't really. I mean can you honestly say that Minimonsta, Auturia Moog sound as raw and solid as hardware mini moog.

Can you say with your past experiance that the Oddity sounds every bit as good and wild as a real Odyssey?

Does the aturia jupiter 8 sound as lush as the real Jupiter 8? Does the Korg MS20 vsti sound anything like the real thing?

I have done these side by side comparisons and to my ears they just sound poor compared to the real thing. There is no getting around it....they just do not sound as full as the real deal.

It's like when you've been using a $200 mic pre amp then buy a $1,000 pre amp...you then realise ahhh that's why it costs so much....damn that's a better sound.

And trying not to contradict myself (I'm sure I have)...there are things that these softs synth emu's can do that the originals can not...it's just I would rather the basic sound was correct before the extra were added.

[vurt]

If you have NEVER really used... and I mean used for a week longf session getting to know the kit....if you have never used great analog kit then you won't miss it, and you won't know what the very rare few of us are going on about on this forum..

THIS is the kind of stateent that pisses me off in these threads.

how do you know what i own, or indeed what i have access to?
as for your 21 years using butter, so, ive been using butter, cream and so on for about the same amount of time, now its time for icing sugar



nostalgia is great, and i cant wait till im older so i can get some

But Vurt I never said this to you. The word that I used was 'if'... meaning 'if' you have never used good analog kit befor but you obviously have used good analog kit before so my point is obviously not aimed at you.

Like I have said a lot... it is of course down to personal preference.

I have never said that the actual sound of one synth is 'better' than any other...there are things my Virus Ti can do that my analogs couldn't dream of.

It is when vsti's venture into analog sound territory that I find them lacking. To my ears with a side by side like for like i.e emu vs real the emu's will always sound harsh, thin or over hyped.

And it also depends on the tyoe of music you produce and to be honest what level. If you've just got into the audio world then having all that nice gear won't really make that much difference....to a noobey's ears the Minimonsta sounds just like those old records....only it doesn't really. I mean can you honestly say that Minimonsta, Auturia Moog sound as raw and solid as hardware mini moog.

Can you say with your past experiance that the Oddity sounds every bit as good and wild as a real Odyssey?

Does the aturia jupiter 8 sound as lush as the real Jupiter 8? Does the Korg MS20 vsti sound anything like the real thing?

I have done these side by side comparisons and to my ears they just sound poor compared to the real thing. There is no getting around it....they just do not sound as full as the real deal.



And trying not to contradict myself (I'm sure I have)...there are things that these softs synth emu's can do that the originals can not...it's just I would rather the basic sound was correct before the extra were added.

why are you doing side by side comparisons if all you care about is sounding good?
it seems like a bit of a pointless waste of time, when for example you could just use the sounds you like and not the ones you dont, if it happens that 90% of the things you use are analog it doesnt make them better, it just means they suited your needs more than someone elses

as ed pointed out, it seems too many people think there is a right and a wrong, when in reality there is just "more choices".
as far as i can hear as much music is being made nowadays as was back before synths even existed, some of it i like, some i dont. nothings changed

It's like when you've been using a $200 mic pre amp then buy a $1,000 pre amp...you then realise ahhh that's why it costs so much....damn that's a better sound.

you where doing so well...
what if the 200 dollar amp has a character that suits your requirements more than the expensive one without additional processing? does that mean the cheap one is "better"?
it is indeed all about choice.

also, chances are that without being told most people hearing a track wouldnt be able to pick out va versus real analogue in most cases. and im including musos and synthesists in that too. if mixed well that is

[debra1rlo]

Digital... usually 2 or 3 fingers will do... but not into the back door stuff, so no anal log for me thanks

[vurt]

Digital... usually 2 or 3 fingers will do... but not into the back door stuff

[debra1rlo]

Well, seeing how quickly you replied before I made a quick edit to my post, I'd make an exception for you vurt.