Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership

[chk071]

no traps here.

Yeah, seems to be all good and mostly documented here. But you know how it is sometimes.

[whyterabbyt]

are we now so jaded that we expect that companies will roll out releases that are not going to work properly ??

I dont actually know what you expect, so there's no 'we' here.

strictly speaking, if i bought sonar in 2004 because they introduced a to-die-for feature, did i not pay the money for that feature to be working ?? most software has such bugs that have become so-called 'legacy' bugs, that have never been fixed. with every coming release we cry "please fix xxx from year xxx, version xxx, before new features"

fast-forward 11 years, and maybe that bug is fixed during my subscription. have i not paid for that to be working in every paid update for the last 11-years ??

So now you're trying to conflate something which applies to all software with this subscription model?

If you do want to have a debate about when bugs get fixed, and when they get 'paid for', its probably best not to slip it in to a thread about a payment model you've failed to grasp despite multiple attempts to explain it to you, because it just confuses the issue.

Or does this mean you've finally understood the pointed-out-20-times bit that you need to pay for the software for a year before you own it, or not?

you want to argue in a literal, to-the-law, manner about how i strictly don't own something if i haven't finished paying for it. good for you.

Its not an argument. You dont owe it till youve paid for it. That's known as a 'fact'. not an 'argument.'

(and great for cakewalk). but i still see no benefit to anyone but cakewalk. right there in the text from cakewalk's rep, is written how the money to buy outright is often too much. yup !! this is dangling temptation in front of people who really probably cannot afford to buy at all. loans are always targeted hardest at those who can't pay, because the company stands to benefit from the customer defaulting (in this case, by not losing any sale), and making the customer pay right from the start if they ever want to try again.

So why arent you all over the announcements of software which allow payment by credit card?

This is basically a 'selling stuff is evil, so giving people alternate ways of buying stuff is eviler' rhetoric, then.
How about you dont get to decide whether its okay for other people to buy stuff or not?

if a customer doesn't complete the term (and there are many reasons why that might occur), then they have been renting the software

If that's how you want to view 'they have got the use of something but failed to buy it outright' then go ahead.

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

Has someone brought up the question yet what happens when you pay for a year, then after another year has gone, you pay one month, will you be able to keep the upgraded version then? Like, after a year there will have been a significant number of new features and stuff.

I'll answer it. If you complete a year, you'll have build #12 for example. You'll own that outright. Now, say you decide to wait a year and come back, your renewal price will still be $199 or $19.99 a month but you'll have to again do 12 months at $19.99 in order to keep everything you own. You will get everything that has been released in the year you were away. You need to complete 12 months in order to keep everything in the monthly scenario (with upfront payment you are all set and you'll again get 12 more months of features on top of everything you missed out). If you fail to pay for 12 months, we will revert you to demo mode, and you'll have to rollback to build#12. This prevents people from doing one month, getting all the latest stuff, and then canceling and essentially getting a year or mores worth of innovations for $20.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Ive already asked, but I dont think you answered. What do you think should happen?

i think it was fine as it is. people should buy updates in full, and should expect that baked into that cost is a certain amount of time put into fixing bugs

i think it is for the company to do the legwork, speculating and investing the money they have been given in ways that will keep customers loyal and buying the next version

i don't think that companies should hedge their bets with crowd-funding, subscriptions or offering finance to those who can't afford it (but who will be tempted anyway), who have a whole year to default and lose their investment

[chk071]

Thanks Andrew, all clear now.

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

Andrew Rossa, does Cakewalk Command Center have to be installed when we install Sonar? Can we not install it and still install Sonar? Does Cakewalk Command Center run in the background constantly or only when launched? I don't like unnecessary programs running on my computer and like the old way of installing Sonar with just serial number and Activation code. One of Sonar's strenghths and advantages over many other DAW's is Cakewalk has always had no-hassle copy-protection and this is one of the main reasons I've stayed onboard the Sonar train.

Glad to see smart changes made at Cakewalk. I personally don't like rent/subscription models but since there is a option for me with upfront payments I'm sure more options is a good thing. We do get less tech support than before with the new Membership plan since before Cakewalk gave tech support for current version X3 and previous version X2 wich meant 2 years support. Now it is only one year support but the good news is we'll be getting more features in Sonar for our money wich counters the less phone tech support.

I'll be upgrading from my X3 Producer to X4 Platnum at some point I'm sure, I just need to see more of the type of new features I want. Hopefully the Audio Engine is dramatically improved for better low-latency-performance (And for Sonar to stop working the single core much more harder than the other cores with multi-core computers). Hopefully I see what my niche demographic want wich is comprehensive dvd-a and Blu-ray Authoring (seems possible since Cakewalk has just added DSD file support presently and CD burning in the past). I'm sure you guys at Cakewalk will add something I must-have at some point so i'll keep my wallet close when I visit your website.

Nice to see Cakewalk "Rise like a Phoenix from the ashes and ascend".

Command Center is not required but highly suggested. You don't have to have it installed to run it or have it on to open the program. It's not some kind of dongle or anything. But Command Center does install quicker, you don't need enter a serial number, and it keep you up to date on future releases.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

are we now so jaded that we expect that companies will roll out releases that are not going to work properly ??

I dont actually know what you expect, so there's no 'we' here.

strictly speaking, if i bought sonar in 2004 because they introduced a to-die-for feature, did i not pay the money for that feature to be working ?? most software has such bugs that have become so-called 'legacy' bugs, that have never been fixed. with every coming release we cry "please fix xxx from year xxx, version xxx, before new features"

fast-forward 11 years, and maybe that bug is fixed during my subscription. have i not paid for that to be working in every paid update for the last 11-years ??

So now you're trying to conflate something which applies to all software with this subscription model?

If you do want to have a debate about when bugs get fixed, and when they get 'paid for', its probably best not to slip it in to a thread about a payment model you've failed to grasp despite multiple attempts to explain it to you, because it just confuses the issue.

Or does this mean you've finally understood the pointed-out-20-times bit that you need to pay for the software for a year before you own it, or not?

you want to argue in a literal, to-the-law, manner about how i strictly don't own something if i haven't finished paying for it. good for you.

Its not an argument. You dont owe it till youve paid for it. That's known as a 'fact'. not an 'argument.'

(and great for cakewalk). but i still see no benefit to anyone but cakewalk. right there in the text from cakewalk's rep, is written how the money to buy outright is often too much. yup !! this is dangling temptation in front of people who really probably cannot afford to buy at all. loans are always targeted hardest at those who can't pay, because the company stands to benefit from the customer defaulting (in this case, by not losing any sale), and making the customer pay right from the start if they ever want to try again.

So why arent you all over the announcements of software which allow payment by credit card?

This is basically a 'selling stuff is evil, so giving people alternate ways of buying stuff is eviler' rhetoric, then.
How about you dont get to decide whether its okay for other people to buy stuff or not?

if a customer doesn't complete the term (and there are many reasons why that might occur), then they have been renting the software

If that's how you want to view 'they have got the use of something but failed to buy it outright' then go ahead.

not gonna go down this rabbit-hole with you. you know exactly what it is i am saying, and what i am not saying

so fill yer f**king boots...i'm out

[Burillo]

Ive already asked, but I dont think you answered. What do you think should happen?

i think it was fine as it is. people should buy updates in full, and should expect that baked into that cost is a certain amount of time put into fixing bugs

which is precisely what happens under this new system too. you can buy updates in full and enjoy 12 months of free updates, bugfixes and new features. i still don't see what is your issue here.

i think it is for the company to do the legwork, speculating and investing the money they have been given in ways that will keep customers loyal and buying the next version

...which is precisely what happens with this membership system. people can choose to quit any time, or choose not to renew. so it has an incentive to keep customers loyal. with a slight difference though - there is no "next version" this time. it's always the latest version.

i don't think that companies should hedge their bets with crowd-funding, subscriptions or offering finance to those who can't afford it (but who will be tempted anyway), who have a whole year to default and lose their investment

that's irrelevant to the discussion. can't afford it - don't buy it. no one loses their investment - you get to use full version of Sonar despite not having to pay the full price for it. if anything, it's better than before because before, if you didn't have those extra 10 bucks missing from the full price, you couldn't use Sonar *at all*. if you think Cakewalk should give you that privilege for free, good for you. but that's not how it works.

[sounddesigner]

Andrew, Is Command center constantly running in the background when installed or only runs when you launch it? Glad to see I don't have to install it at all but still want to know about it just in case I ever do use it.

Thanks Andrew Rossa

[whyterabbyt]

Ive already asked, but I dont think you answered. What do you think should happen?

i think it was fine as it is. people should buy updates in full, and should expect that baked into that cost is a certain amount of time put into fixing bugs

And the current situation is that you can buy the update in full, in one payment, or in full over 12. And baked into that cost is a certain amount of time put into fixing bugs.

What you keep asking is why you dont get bugfixes when you havent paid in full. Im asking you what you think the alternative should be when you dont pay in full. Is that seriously that hard to follow?

[poonna]

I sincerely hope to understand your point and get my point across. Let me try again.

are we now so jaded that we expect that companies will roll out releases that are not going to work properly ??

strictly speaking, if i bought sonar in 2004 because they introduced a to-die-for feature, did i not pay the money for that feature to be working ?? most software has such bugs that have become so-called 'legacy' bugs, that have never been fixed. with every coming release we cry "please fix xxx from year xxx, version xxx, before new features"

fast-forward 11 years, and maybe that bug is fixed during my subscription. have i not paid for that to be working in every paid update for the last 11-years ??

If you have a version bought in 2004, and now see a new version with a bug fix you've always been waiting for. Let's look at a few scenarios.

1. Old model. You'll have to pay, let's say, $199 for the upgrade price, just for this bug fix and all other stuff you probably don't need, and get bug fixes you also probably don't need until the next major upgrade.

2. New model. You'll have to pay, let's say, $199 for the upgrade price, just for this bug fix and all other stuff you probably don't need, and get other stuff and bug fixes you also probably don't need for the next 12 months.

3. New model. You'll have to pay, let's say, $237 for the upgrade price, in 12 payments, just for this bug fix and all other stuff you probably don't need, and get other stuff and bug fixes you also probably don't need for the next 12 months. Just don't break the contract.

How exactly is this worse than the old model? I think it is comparable, and even offers more choices to the customers.

you want to argue in a literal, to-the-law, manner about how i strictly don't own something if i haven't finished paying for it. good for you. (and great for cakewalk). but i still see no benefit to anyone but cakewalk. right there in the text from cakewalk's rep, is written how the money to buy outright is often too much. yup !! this is dangling temptation in front of people who really probably cannot afford to buy at all. loans are always targeted hardest at those who can't pay, because the company stands to benefit from the customer defaulting (in this case, by not losing any sale), and making the customer pay right from the start if they ever want to try again.

if a customer doesn't complete the term (and there are many reasons why that might occur), then they have been renting the software

many people seem to be arguing in defense of the system, so i guess it is me who doesn't understand.

Yes, it might be seen like that. But do you buy a house or a car without mortgage? There are always places for something like that. Customers will always have to consider their ability to actually afford it, whatever it is. But, not having this choice, a lot of people would have a hard time owning a house before they hit their 40s. You get to have it right away. Why should music software be an exception?

[whyterabbyt]

not gonna go down this rabbit-hole with you. you know exactly what it is i am saying

that would be 'why dont i get bugfixes for software I havent finished paying for' about 30 times despite being told why just as frequently.

, and what i am not saying

and that would be an answer to 'what do you expect to get if you havent finished paying for the software', asked twice.

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

Andrew, Is Command center constantly running in the background when installed or only runs when you launch it? Glad to see I don't have to install it at all but still want to know about it just in case I ever do use it.

Thanks Andrew Rossa

Nope, Command Center is not required to install.

[whyterabbyt]

1. Old model. You'll have to pay, let's say, $199 for the upgrade price, just for this bug fix and all other stuff you probably don't need, and get bug fixes you also probably don't need until the next major upgrade.

2. New model. You'll have to pay, let's say, $199 for the upgrade price, just for this bug fix and all other stuff you probably don't need, and get other stuff and bug fixes you also probably don't need for the next 12 months.

3. New model. You'll have to pay, let's say, $237 for the upgrade price, in 12 payments, just for this bug fix and all other stuff you probably don't need, and get other stuff and bug fixes you also probably don't need for the next 12 months. Just don't break the contract.

How exactly is this worse than the old model?

If I understand correctly, its worse than the old model because capitalism is teh devil.

Or more precisely, giving people an easier option to buy means they will buy, and (since people clearly cant be trusted) then when those (obviously dumb) poor saps enter into an agreement they cant afford, then the company should indulge their financial misadventures with free stuff. if company not willing to indulge the (obviously untrustable dumb idiot saps who are so helpless its scary) people with free stuff then company is the bad guy and capitalism is teh devil.

[Burillo]

not gonna go down this rabbit-hole with you. you know exactly what it is i am saying

that would be 'why dont i get bugfixes for software I havent finished paying for' about 30 times despite being told why just as frequently.

, and what i am not saying

and that would be an answer to 'what do you expect to get if you havent finished paying for the software', asked twice.

i went back and re-read the entire conversaion, and i think i got it.

let's say he has Sonar, erm, i dunno, 4. an old-ass Sonar version, that is. let's say it has a bug, that he wants to get fixed before he ever upgrades. so he waits for versions 5, 6, 7, 8, X1, etc. but those bugs don't get fixed, and he doesn't upgrade. then this subscription thing comes along, and on, say, month 4, Cakewalk finally fixes the bug.

what he's saying is, he doesn't expect to own the stuff that's happened since Sonar 4, but he does expect to "own" that bugfix because hey, he bought Sonar a long time ago and "deserved" this fix.

what he apparently doesn't understand is that bugs are inseparable from the version of software that they are found in. in other words, he seems to expect Cakewalk to go back to version 4 and fix this bug for him, because he is now subscribed to Sonar X10. he doesn't expect to get the rest of Sonar X10 for free, but he seems to be expecting either Sonar 4 to be fixed, or somehow get Sonar X10 without all the new functionality that has happened since Sonar 4.

this is what i have gathered.